The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Does anyone know Piper's version of where he got the plans then?

 

In a magazine article, probably over 30 years ago, he claimed that Enzo gave him the plans so he could make one (sic) replica and agreed he should number it 9000.

Of course, he made a few more than the original one 'sanctioned'.

While MF might not have known about this arrangement - if indeed it happened - undeniably 'Nostra David' was close to the 'Old Man', having bought a number of cars and, more to the point, done a lot to promote the Ferrari name though his racing success. And of course, these were merely obsolete racing cars at the time and not worth the eye-watering numbers talked of today.

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Enzo Ferrari authorized Piper to make 1 "continuation" car. Piper had 3 chassis made, so if they did officially recognize one as a genuine Ferrari I don't think it would be 003

 

So should all of the Piper built chassis match these plans/blueprints? Do the Piper chassis match each other?

Is it believed that these plans are the ones Glickenhaus claims to have acquired from Piper?

Did the Piper chassis stray from these plans?

Are the Piper plans Ferrari originated plans? Or drafted by Piper and crew?

Do these plans match the construction of the original P4's? Have they evolved?

Is Piper telling a tale or is Forghieri mistaken?

So... Enzo would sell him a ton of spares and give him a serial to make one chassis but would not sell the plans to make said chassis?

Etc, Etc.

 

Dear Vincent,

All you questions have already been answered in this thread.

Cheers
Tom

 

Really?

So why are people now saying the plans did not come from Ferrari?

Where is the discussion of how the Piper frames match up?

Where is the discussion of the frames construction?

Is Piper telling an tale when he says he got the plans from Enzo or is Forghieri mistaken?

With all due respect, I don't think any of the above has been answered in this thread.

 

yes do some research and come back

 

Really, Seems our friend Horsefly has had quite the challenge finding these plans you speak of?

Could you shed any light on where you found the Da Vinci code?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4/540680-p4-chassis-blueprints-3.html

 

No I can't

 

a friend called Franco Sbarro and spoke in Italian with him.
Mr Sbarro doesn't remember anything about a P4 frame that was in his shop in Grandson in 1977.
Nothing about a "0846" or P4 frame.
He said: we put numbers on documents (carnets) to cross CARS the border and when they passed these were thrown away (not saying he did it ever with a P4 FRAME)
He could remember a Ferrari that was burned (Heini Walter he worked for)

 

It wasn't a frame but an entire car.
"Here are my 2 cents in this never ending pissing contest:
In 1977 I visited Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland. There was a P3 or P4 car and David Piper showed me a customs carnet (customs booklet) which stated the chassis number 0846 and the name of the owner at the time was a company called "Cervan Corporation". I assume that this company was owned at the time by David Piper. No, I could not make any photos, neither of the car nor of the customs carnet.
Marcel Massini "
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613962-post2994.html

 

No car, no frame

 

... and no photos.

 

Can somebody provide a definitive statement on how all of the Piper chassis compare to each other?

Please don't answer the above by saying it's already been discussed in this thread, because I've seen that stated a few times in this thread but I don't recall seeing the actual text that compares all Piper chassis. It's a huge thread, so it is very possible that I missed it. If that is the case, please provide the post number where it was discussed.

 

I'm sorry, I don't understand this four word post.

Are you saying that marcel did not see a car?

Or?

 

Please read again.
Franco Sbarro does not know anything about a P3 or P4 car nor a frame nor anything about "0846"

 

You have been paitently waiting for the conversation to turn this way

 

and he won't comment on this issue.

 

So why did piper "sell" 0846 as 003 then? Why didn't he claim it to have original bits or even a BITSA car. It would have brought signficantly more money. Why did Jim and Piper have a contract stating he was buying a replica as 003. Why was 003 marketed only as 003 and not as a bitsa?

Why wouldn't piper cash in on this? Why would he not say today that the car really is 0846?

If he had knowledge of the car being 0846 why wouldn't he have carried that on? Not only would he have received more money for it but... it would have meant that he wouldn't have built another replica that he wasn't supposed to build. He would have been paid more AND he wouldn't have been in as much trouble...

So...
He didn't want extra money...
He wanted more headaches of building cars he wasn't supposed to...
He likes to lie about the origins of the car???
He likes to state that a real car is a replica???

Makes sense... LOL

 

I didn't find such a definitive comparison either. Certainly, to compare all Piper replica chassis might be an interesting (and demanding) project. But what is its relevance? Only relevant is here, that we have with DP0003 and the late 0846 two different frames.

 

+ Cervan corp was NOT related to Piper but an other person in the UK.
So we can close that complete "swiss" case
Mugello did not happen either (Ferrari scrapped chassis after LM67) no records, nothing.
Ferrari did not test at Mugello with a P car in 1967 or 1968.
Ferrari still has chassis tag.

Or do we need a historian to confirm. So if Alan Boe says or Pourret we would all agree?

 

I guess I never thought about how old Marcel was at the time...

Then again every 18 year old is different. I know Harley Cluxton IV at 18 would remember every last square inch of just about anything at that age. Now some of the 18 year olds that I know and even the 20 year olds that work for me... I wouldn't trust them to remember what color there mothers eyes are. LOL

 

As WRXMike rather succinctly put it, an endless pissing contest, and to not even afford Marcel a little respect is poor form IMO. He stated what he saw and was open about what it might mean and not mean. So to be critical of him because something that happened 40 years ago doesn't readily fit with what we know is cheap.

 

The issue here is, that Mr. Sbarro doesn't remember anything about a P4 car and frame in his shop in Grandson in 1977 and not the question, what Mr. Massini – then around eighteen years old and collecting Porsche magazines - might have seen or not without taking pictures.

 

There is not the slightest trace of a Cervan company.