The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

There is respect... and then there is disrespect.

I see no disrespect. No one is saying that Marcel was some young punk kid who didn't know a huffy from a schwin. No one is stating that at all.

It was in my opinion merely mentioned to add some context. In my opinion or at least I didn't out right dismiss his claim because he was 18. It does provide context. Thats all

To hold Marcel up as some sort of deity at all portions of his life is asinine and when dealing with something like this... foolish.

Im sure Marcel has made a mistake. Im pretty sure if he bought a pencil... he would buy one with an eraser...


So I will say this. Nothing wrong to say his age may have a roll to play and limited experience at that point in his life may have a roll to play in his 40 year old recollection.

It IS WRONG to assume that it 100% did have something to do with it and to completely 100% dismiss it is WRONG

 

The only mystery to me, and apologies if this has been discussed in the thread already, is what would explain a welded (repair ?) joint in the chassis of 003? Was the car raced before sold, and so could have been damaged and repaired?

 

Thanks. Yes, I saw the earlier post. I didn't want to presume your fragment four word post was an attempt to summarize what your friend told you he heard from Sbarro re Sbarro's recollection (or lack thereof).

(Your four words are far more declarative than what I've written here to summarize your post, thus my question....was wondering why so declarative)

Also worth pointing out the obvious, what you are bringing here in these latest posts has to be compared with the firsthand post by Marcel as to what he saw that day.

I'm confident I'm not the only one who will struggle to assign more weight to what you brought over MM's firsthand post.

(All that said, the MM post has long been a part of the story here, and hasn't factored in the debate to any great extent as of late due to Steve's many posts and information)

 

So...we are going sideways, but it's all good fun.

I had to chuckle at the attempts to say 18-year olds have worse memories than older folks. Mostly I've seen the opposite in my time on earth...old folks memories aren't what they used to be after all

 

Thats also likely because Marcel was succinct about what he saw and what that might mean rather than taking a fact and then trying to stretch that fact to some form of proof. There can be multiple reasons why Sbarro had a bare chassis with the paperwork for #0846, Ole Franco's contemporary work with Ford GT40s and other cars from the period ask more questions than give answers, and I digress because it was Piper that showed Marcel the chassis as noted in his post, so who knows were up to or where it was going or who the end user is. One thing that I am absolutely certain of is that if Marcel says he saw a P3/ P4 type chassis with carnet paperwork for #0846 then he did so, you may have other reasons for believing other claims and thats your right but I am certain that it is one of the few factual points in this whole saga.

Several thoughts come out of the last two days
- Marcel didn't state that the chassis was #0846 just that it was a contemporary chassis to the correct design with customs carnet paperwork for that number
- Whether CERVAN was Pipers company or not, Piper was the man in the room that showed Marcel the chassis
- These cars had little value at the time as classic racing was still just a dream of Piper and a handful of collectors, even GTOs were $7k USD and a P4 would have been slow vs a Group 6 racecar, so there cannot have been a financial imperative unless Piper was looking for LONG term profits so why was it resurrected and that still doesn't exactly explain to me why anyone would build three chassis
- If it was the frame from #0846 that was sitting in that warehouse, doesn't automatically mean it was later built into DP003, could be still in Pipers warehouse or with another collector entirely
- Who modified DP003 from the oft claimed P4 blueprints that he was said to have received from Ferrari, if they are not original modifications, did Piper?

Nothing is going to be easy in this story and proven is such a high bar to cross.

 

The weld on DP003 could have come from any number of things. DP003 was built to be a race car and it could have sustained damage in that capacity, or something as simple as a trailer tie-down foul up.

To me the bigger mystery is, how can JG or other believers claim the weld is/was proof of a repair that must have been made to 0846, while flatly ignoring the fact that virtually nothing in the rest of the front end of DP003 resembles period photos of 0846? It's beyond comprehension 0846 was so severely damaged that it resulted in a nearly complete replacement of the front end (back end, bulk head, body, etc), and yet for some bizarre reason a previously compromised tube from an early crash made it into a pile of bits that were supposedly utilized in the construction of DP003.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613962-post2994.html

MM: I assume that this company was owned at the time by David
Piper.
Statement on wheels attached to “car” was left. see below:

“L Wayne Ausbrooks
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:27 pm:
One last addition. Mark Ketcham responds to the earlier message
with an exact quote by Marcel Massini regarding what he saw in
1977:
"... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or
less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work.
Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846
on
the frame, right rear part.
Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a
document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows
you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying
taxes.
But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to
get a carnet.
Marcel Massini"

“Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 9:06 am:
L Wayne Ausbrooks:
This began with an eyewitness. Marcel Massini:
"Yes,I did see-as stated before-the customs CARNET,which is a
normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without
paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro
garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As
I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company)
was the name the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote
that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual
name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I
never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as I said before."
Another whitness (Who for the time being will remain nameless)
" I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning(He was the fellow who
saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was
definitely and entire chassis (stamped 08460,with engine also
stapmed 0846."
Eyewitness's are important but physical evidence much more so.
Forensic analisis coupled with documentation (For example the the
LeMans documents are very, very, specific and include things as
minute as serial #'s of starter motors)
can be very compelling and are much harder to fake”

“L W Ausbrooks
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:42 am:
……”When Marcel examined the chassis in 1977 I believe he
described it as "bits and pieces, and a lot of original documents,
some with 0846 on them." In my mind there is a difference
between paperwork and actual parts. Applying a serial number
from documents to a part does not make it the legitimate
item in my mind.
At the time Marcel believed that Michael Vernon was the actual
owner of the project in Sbarro's warehouse”

So Marcel did the PPI but did not know if MV was the actual owner?
Why do a PPI then?

And
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613326-post3572.html

Nathan Beehl: If 0846 chassis was in Switzerland in 1977 how
could it have been used to build 003 in 1974 - the date that DP
says he built 003.

And not only that!:

“L W Ausbrooks”
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 1:10 am:
Ok, Jim. For those of you who are following the story, here is
Jim's response to my earlier post:
"That is yet another car Piper made not the one I bought from him.
There have been articles on that car and it was always referred to
by him as a track replica car. I would respond to Schultz by asking
whether or not this looks like a 365 street engine? Piper at one time
definitely referred to my car as 0846. When I asked him why he
stopped his response was vague, He did say something strange
though. "0846's chassis was used to make P5 ...." weird? Non? The
car Piper sold me was the first car he built. It was built
before 0900. He gave me pic's of it from 1974 painted
exactly including # as 0846 after Daytona."

So Jim has photo’s of the complete car in 1974! Anyone here that
has them? Post them please!


The first car??? DP001 (not a Ferrari) DP2 “0900” first seen in 1978/1979 (in 1979 article by Doug Nye that Piper had spent 4 or 5 years making 0900 so that would make it 1974 the project started)
So Piper lied to Doug Nye that he already had a car (DP0003) finished in 1974; 5 years earlier, but did not use it for the Old Motor article.....NO WAY!

DP0003 first seen in public in 1982……

So Piper hided the car for about 8 years in Italy??? (1982-/- 1974) Oh no he sold it in 1977 to Vernon.

How can the car be in the UK in 1974 (or in Italy) as “23” Daytona winning” whereas in
1977 there was not a complete car in Switzerland!!
Marcel must have seen the no 23 on the front clip! Oh no he didn't because he would have noticed that and it is a very important one. (Piper went to Italy and removed 23 number and doors and part of bodywork and sent it to Switzerland, LOL)

Proof is in the metal.

 

If that is true, would not all of the Piper chassis exactly match each other as they were built to the same plans, no?

If not why were they modified from Ferrari design?

I mean, the proof in the metal comes from the plans no?

Would they be the same generation of plans used to build the original P4's?

Would they match the Ferrari ones exactly?

Do you believe Forghieri is wrong and the Piper plans were indeed from Ferrari?

Do you have any guess on what Marcel saw that day?

I don't really give the Marcel was only 18, it could have been a gremlin chassis much creedence. I'm sure Marcel was a knowledgeable teen if he was with Piper examining a car in Switzerland. He saw something and from what I can tell no one has a good answer for that.

 

!

 

I don't understand why all the chassis Piper built would have had to match - regardless of where the plans came from. Perhaps they were built differently for setup of specific course types or engine/suspension combinations. Perhaps he evolved them as he saw fit. In short, they wouldn't have had to match.

I don't doubt Marcel saw a chassis labeled 0846. But that doesn't mean what MM saw 40 years ago HAD to have wound up in DP003. And, Marcel said he saw the chassis stamped 0846. That being the case, and trusting MM's account completely, why would Jim G have needed to stamp his DP003 chassis 0846 if it came from the stamped chassis Marcel saw?

 

Again, all in good fun...

but you are missing the point of what I was refering to as memories... and the whole enchilada.

1. an observation from an 18 year old is limited by life experience. For example when I was 5 years old my grandfather had a 3 story tall tractor... I told everyone my grandfather had a bigger tractor than what they had which what was in front of me when I was 18... The problem was when you are 5 everything seems bigger. I still saw a tractor... and hell probably the same tractor but life changes our perspective of what we are viewing/experiencing.

2. Don't go off on me about saying he was inexperienced... how many people back then were experienced in Ferrari P cars... ok... now how many 18 year olds were? Its not a slight on him... its just he is more experienced now than he was then. His knowledge now is vastly greater than it is was and each and every day I am sure it improves.

3. You have never had the experience of remembering something different from your child hood? Perhaps your favorite toy... or going back to your old school perhaps?

4. When you were 18 or if you had an 18 year old son... did you have to be reminded to do your homework? Did you have to be reminded to do your laundry? How about now... do you need a reminder to do your laundry? Did you ever forget to do your homework? Did you ever forget a due date? Your mind is never a steel trap... even when you are 18 So... ya... your memory sucks when you are young and it sucks when you are older...

5. what happens when your memory from when you were 18 ages 40ish years...

And listen... I think Marcel is AWESOME! Hell I don't need to think it... EVERYONE KNOWS IT! The guy is a FREAKING ROCKSTAR and he is up there with the ferrari Gods and I have a huge amount of respect for the man, his passion and his abilities. Its absolutely amazing. But hey... he is still human and to take what he saw 40 years ago with far more limited knowledge then than now... at anything less than 100% factual accurate isn't disrespectful or blasphemous... its just being sensible.

I do think if is blasphemous to dismiss his account... but again... its a 40 year old recollection made by an 18 year old guy on a 1 off car. Id venture to say if someone took 0858 and wiped the numbers off of it and called it 0846 people would believe it... or if someone took a proven replica and said it was 0858 people would believe it. 99.999% of the populations of this planet couldn't tell the cars apart without some sort of reference.

Hell i bet the factory ferrari works team had a hard time keeping the cars straight when they were in the shop.

Anyways... if you were just saying that the mind slips with age I get it... and its definitely a fun laugh and if I took this to far I apologize... but I just wanted to just expand upon my thought.

 

I remember in much more vivid detail the one off coupe' I saw at an auction in 1980, than the one off convertible I saw in 2016. Which means I'm an old bugger..and my memory of things that I was very passionate about as a young man was better than it may be today.

 

Good points but 1 simple point is this, if Marcel was just some 18 year old, why was David Piper showing him the car?

Any attempt by anyone to minimize Marcel's recollections as being "just another 18 year olds memories" needs to be convincing because I am sure David Piper wouldn't simply show every 18 year old Ferrari fanatic his stable, he would never get anything done if he did that

As an aside it isn't a 40 year old recollection as Marcel carefully records everything he has seen and found about cars he covers and has done so from day dot so this viewing would have been recorded when he got home and kept recorded and referred to when needed. Yes it would have been better if he had of had the ability to copy the paperwork but Marcel has been open about what he saw and didn't see.

 

Given the detailed information posted to this thread already, I am not sure if what Marcel does or does not remember is other than, at best, a side issue

To put this in context, the Ferrari world was a lot simpler 40 or 50 years ago. Most owners and dealers in exotic cars were enthusiasts and would welcome young kids who had a real interest, spending time chatting or showing them their toys. No talk of money or Alctraz- like security.

Marcel quickly became known to those of us who consumed everything Ferrari but I am sure that he would say that he knows infinitely more than he did at 18.

For his part, David Piper was always a friendly and approachable man. He was known to modify his cars and do a bit of wheeling and dealing, but was popular with those who knew him.

In this litigous, money driven world, it is hardly suprising that respected experts are now circumspect about what they say.

Steve and others have been courageous in persuing their enquiries and suffered abuse from certain keyboard warriors - why on earth would those who make or made their living out of Ferrari willingly subject themselves to this?

 

I fully agree. And the relevant issue is not Mr. Sbarro’s statement or if Mr. Massini does remember and was qualified 40 years ago to inspect as a youngster some 'P4 chassis' and its documents. The issue is here only, that DP0003 contains upon Miura’s documentation no remnants of the late 0846’s chassis and is a 100% replica as sold and bought.

 

I think that if MM's personal observations fitted the timeline and theories held by many posters they would be heralded as the paradigm of accuracy and would be gladly used to justify their theories.

But they don't, so instead, they are dismissed as the irrelevant observations of an 18 year old that probably didn't understand or properly remember what he saw.

The problem with the approach is that MM is the only person who has personally stated for the record what he saw in Sbarro's workshop and hence is lot more credible than " I asked a friend to call Sbarro and Sbarro told my friend there was no car / chassis ".
There is no "grey" in that statement, it's black and white, no car.

Now for the Sbarro statement to be correct, MM would have to 100% incorrect, ie MM never saw a car, MM's visit to Sbarro and meeting Piper was a fantasy.
MM is known for his methodical records and approach, and I don't think MM would be making up a story about seeing a car just to entertain Fchat....

Sbarro is now 78 years old, I wonder how good his recollection of events 40 years ago.?

 

Yes, I would have to guess that Marcel saw a P3/P4 frame. for posters just to try to pass that moment off as something that doesn't warrant serious consideration is ridiculous and shows the colors of them just pushing their agenda IMO.

18 year olds are not idiots that know nothing, there are many accomplished 18 year olds and knowing the range of MM's expertise, I would have to guess he started on his path way before that. People with his skill level start the work on their talent early, it's not like a great musician or gymnist starts in their twenties, people that accel in pursuits such as these have been at it since they were kids.

This is not just some clueless 18 year old, this is an 18 year old that grew up to be one of the worlds foremost Ferrari experts. To write him off as clueless just shows the case closed agenda.

Does anyone know when the public first saw the various Piper P4 frames? Not when Piper says they were completed but when they were actually seen by an outside source?

Do you really believe this? If you do, I don't know how you expect anyone to believe the rest of what you are saying. Without a doubt, there was a frame there that day.

 

You have zero idea if that is true. You have no knowledge of how these chassis were built or maintained/modified.

You also have no confirmation that the pictures Miura is referencing is confirmed 0846.

You have zero idea if the present day pictures that Miura is using have been changed/modified/ repaired.

You are playing where's Waldo by comparing pictures of a car that may have been modified with pictures of cars that may have been modified. There is no certainty with an approach like that.

The only way to come to an answer is to know how each of the chassis were originally built and what changes they went through during their lives. Looking at pictures of chassis that may or may not be the same after time is just guessing.

 

Agreed, they could have all been modified for use, including the Glickenhaus chassis. But it is important to know the construction of all chassis to compare them. It is important to know the nuances of the Piper versus Ferrari chassis. If the rest of the Piper chassis share certain attributes that the Glickenhaus chassis don't, believing he built it is a harder pill to swallow.

To say he built 0846 but not know how he actually built the chassis we know he built for comparison is ridiculous.

As far as the MM chassis, yes it could have ended up anywhere, not neccessarily in the Glick frame. Myaybe 0846 was destroyed by factory? Maybe it wasn't? Maybe it ended up in a defunct dairy queen in Boulder Colorado? Maybe Piper has it? Maybe it was modified to build the Glick frame? Who knows?

But if it did end up in the Glick chassis, maybe the tag was removed as he wasn't authorized to use that number, just 0900.

 

Perhaps I am taking this too personally... But since I am the one more or less keeping this conversation going regarding the memory thing I am going to assume you are referencing me...


And I find it hilarious that you bring up the point of sbarro having a 40 year old memory lapse but not marcel. At least sbarro was 38 at the time and had been directly involved as opposed to being an observer. Not discounting the observation... just adding more weight to the personal involvement.

Anyways... if you are going to bash 1 40 year old recollection than bash the other as well...

Just treat them equally. I think most people on here that are rational thinkers... take both accounts equally with a grain of salt. We all have experiences with people were the story gets bigger or better with time. So I personally don't think that people are soley relying on these personal accounts... because like any traffic accident all the witnesses say something different yet observed the same thing. I think most people take this into account. I say just treat them equally. If you throw one out throw them all out.. if you keep one... keep them all (unless of course there is a blatantly lie) or just take them all with a grain of salt.
I wrote long winded responses to try to ensure people like you didn't take it the wrong way... and yet I still failed.

let me make this crystal clear... I am not saying and have not really heard anyone say the argument should be COMPLETELY DISMISSED.

My ONLY point is it should be taken with a grain of salt. OR AT THE VERY LEAST... NOT RELIED UPON AS GOSPEL.


My point was that his age added CONTEXT. NOT an OUTRIGHT DISMISSAL!

So... no... the pro 003 camp likely wouldn't be singing his praise if Marcels account was for the pro 003 camp based on that memory 40 years ago.

The Pro 003 camp has provided personal accounts... and more importantly photographic evidence to support its story. It has relied upon the photographic evidence more than the personal accounts. The personal accounts have been used as support or as a counter to other personal accounts.

 

How does 003 compare to the other DP chassis?

 

Reasonable explanation of the serial number question on the DP003 chassis versus the 0846; but what would explain the fact that the entire front of the JG chassis is obviously different from the original 0846, and yet one of the cornerstones justifications JG believes his chassis is actually 0846 is the repaired tube on the front of his chassis? I still can't get past the seeming absurdity of a chassis builder keeping only one damaged/repaired section of tube from 0846 and newly fabricating everything else around it.

 

Maybe I am not following along and fully understanding you... so please forgive me and explain it to me if I am taking my argument I misinterpret what you say and take the argument off in some weird tangent.

The pictures Muriasv is using are almost all confirmed to be 0846

Concerning we don't know if the pictures of Jims car that Muira is using are repaired parts... well... if they were repaired... when were they repaired? Since being sold as a replica has it been wrecked and repaired? Jim would know that... I guess that would explain alot about that weld in the front huh? but we all know that car/chassis hasn't been wrecked... (unless you are in the pro 0846 camp but that is clearly a different segment of the argument)

There is plenty of certainty. Here are pictures of the car in its last configuration before being wrecked and scraped.

here are pictures of what jim claims to be 0846... compare... Pretty simple. Also if you know anything about chassis or fabrication (I don't mean this as an insult to you I mean in the general sense) you would know you would not build a car off of a structurally unsound and burnt up crashed chassis. It would be more work to repair than start over... Which is why I think using 0846 as a starting point for a replica holds almost NO merit. now that is just my thought and experience playing in... not facts.

But...

can you prove that 0846 is in jims car.

How about that...

Tell me/us or whatever... with supporting evidence preferabily physical/photographical why Jim has 0846. Show me the continuity of the story. Show me 0846 in Jims car.

The way I have it is this:
Front half of chassis is all wrong
Rear half of chassis is all wrong
No chassis number
ENTIRELY WRONG ENGINE.
Wrong brakes
Non original bodywork
Non original transmission
Non original wheels

Tell me where any 0846 is definitively. Again... I don't mean to come across as a prick... I just want the pro 0846 camp to do a similar presentation to what Steve has done. Since most if not all of what Jim G has said and presented has been largely disproven as well as he agree with some of it and has supplied a new story line of what happen to 0846 after lemans to create the whys and hows of his possesion of 0846.

I really have a hard time with his new story line... because it almost accepts everything steve said and then spins into something else.

 

Except you are using 20/20 hindsight. I don't think Marcel had the great respect and authority as he does now. Was anyone at 18 asking him for information of where certain cars were and there history?

I hate to speculate but as to why he was there to begin with? Probably because he was around and was a bright young guy interested in being around some of this stuff. He wasn't around because everyone had a crystal ball and he was going to be the new gold standard ferrari historian 20 or 30 years from then.

Here is the thing. I don't know marcel and I do have alot of respect for him. I don't want to keep speculating about what or why he knew then vs now etc... I don't like talking about people like that... I get uncomforable with it and I think its borderline rude if I keep going down this path. All I am asking is to treat all verbal testimony if you will the same. Either throw it all out... keep it all... or take it all with a grain of salt is all.