My First Trip to the Shop how many more? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

My First Trip to the Shop how many more?

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by wrs, May 19, 2017.

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  1. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    #26 wrs, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
    This time I am going to insist on a new harness. I will drive around with the top up as long as it takes to get a new one over here. Maranello approved the sensor fix for expediency I think. They told me if it's not warranty, they always do the new harness.

    ETA: Now 3:27, just tried it again and was able to put the top down. Wonder how long this will go on? I also wonder if they will order the harness off the picture I took, probably have to wait for it to fail hard again and take it in.
     
  2. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    It's good that you have the warranty but if your dealer cannot fix your car, it's only paying the bills but not getting the car fixed.

    About the battery, do you know which battery your car is now using? Does your car have stop/start (HELE). I understand stop/start is now a standard requirement on European cars and I believe you are in Austria. Calis with HELE require a different battery from ordinary Calis. HELE cars require AGM batteries.

    My dealer did not realize this when I had problems with my car because my HELE car was only the second one (in Canada). However, I researched the HELE feature, identified the requirement for the AGM battery and got them to recognize the requirement and my battery problem was finally fixed.

    Stop/start (HELE) function is relatively new technology (to fix) for some dealers. Since you are in Austria, your original battery was probably OK at the time of delivery because it didn't take long to arrive from the factory, unlike the 3-4 weeks ocean journey to Canada. So your dealer would not be fixing HELE battery issues in new cars for at least a couple of years as an AGM battery for a HELE car would work OK in Austria in the beginning, unlike mine which immediately failed after delivery (it wouldn't accept a full charge).

    However, there was a 2nd problem for me. The factory also delivered the wrong battery tender with my HELE car. It was incapable of keeping the AGM battery topped up when my car wasn't used. Even when my car was sitting at the dealer for weeks, if they had hooked up the battery tender it wouldn't have worked. It's sometimes tragically funny but the battery can die at the dealer because the car isn't being driven and the battery tender is the wrong one. I'm not making this up because I called the battery manufacturer and their tech support department was very insistent on my using the correct tender/charger.

    If your car is HELE and came with the wrong battery tender like my car, it could explain continuing problems from the battery if it is still using the wrong battery tender.

    If you have a HELE car, you must use an AGM battery of the correct spec. You cannot use an ordinary lead-acid battery. Ordinary lead acid batteries will be damaged by the HELE function in short order and this will then cause all kinds of intermittent problems, like ALL of the ones you noted. The battery tender must feature the snowflake (Winter/AGM) charging mode.

    You mentioned the following problems resulting in 15-16 weeks in the shop:
    1. roof failure,
    2. gearbox issues,
    3. ecu issues,
    4. electrical issues in general,
    5. injectors clogged up,
    6. unbearable vibration at idle.
    7. strange lights coming up like every second drive.

    Did they all happen at the same time or on separate occasions? And if on separate occasions, in what order and time span?

    The reason why I ask is that for so many different problems to occur simultaneously or in short order, they probably all share, at least, some aspect of the same cause. One problem may also result or cause the next problem. In that case, one or more of the problems may appear first.

    So in order to identify the main cause, it may help to determine which if any of the problems stemmed from one of the other ones you encountered. This will help to eliminate consequential problems, as opposed to the primary root problem(s) and narrow down the culprit(s).
     
  3. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #28 4th_gear, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
    Your roof works perfectly fine sometimes but sometimes the roof is stranded mid-operation. And sometimes the roof works again after a failure and can finish the operation if you wait a bit. You know, your roof problem is starting to sound more and more like a weak capacitor (failure) to me.

    I'm no expert on hardtop roof mechanisms but I suspect the act of moving that heavy mechanism requires a lot of IMMEDIATE TORQUE from the motor driving the hydraulics. This torque would require a fair amount of readily available current. If that source of current doesn't deliver, it could strand the roof mid-way as the current delivery fails to turn the motor.

    My limited understanding of cars tell me the car battery works like a capacitor for the charging system. When the engine is turning over sufficiently, the charging system delivers a current to all the electrical systems in the car, VIA THE BATTERY. The battery serves as a filter to prevent spikes and dips. It also acts like a capacitor and will also get charged up by the charging system if power draw demands from the car are less than the current supplied by the charging system. That is, there is a surplus current from the charging system - that's why we suggest people drive their cars at a good clip for 30-40 minutes to charge up the car battery.

    So a healthy battery is like a full toilet water tank. When you flush, the toilet can only do its business properly if there is enough water in the tank. If not, the business only gets partly done. However, if you wait long enough, the water tank will eventually refill and if you flush again, the business is finished properly. Batteries are like that sometimes, they can indicate proper voltage but then perform with insufficient capacity to deliver the required current.

    This reminds me of what you are experiencing with your roof, pardon my toilet analogy. ;)
     
  4. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    Well you scenario sounds nice but that means the roof should have worked after tennis. It's a 20 minute drive up to the UT Tennis Club from my home and the top was down. I put it up when I got there. When I came out there was a "hard" roof failure with the car started. I drove home 20 minutes and there was still a "hard" roof failure, I took the picture at home after the 20 minute drive home. My car gets driven regularly since I bought it. The battery isn't the issue here. Your scenario doesn't fit the situation where I go out to the garage at 3:27 after the car sits for 3 hours and then the roof works.

    A battery uses way more current to drive the starter motor and turn over the engine. That is where it really needs a good charge. My battery isn't low and my car is a November 16 build so it's not like it went bad already. I don't think this roof motor is failing to get enough current. I think it's either a bad motor or there is a problem with one or more of the sensors so the software doesn't allow it to operate.
     
  5. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 3, 2005
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    My experience suggested all along that it was a harness problem -- possibly just a loose connection or bad solder joint -- because the failure warnings seemed to be triggered by motion -- either the top itself in motion, or hitting a bump in the road -- enough to jostle the harness and disturb the sensor. Didn't matter if the top was up or down at the time. This is why it was hard to trace because when they would try to adjust the top or check the harness they might position things so they would work for a while and then eventually the fault would reoccur. Only when it was constantly causing a problem were they finally able to run it down, with Italy's help.

    The good news is I have put 5000 miles on the car since they replaced the offending sensor, operated the top countless times and it has worked perfectly.
     
  6. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    This is why it's so important to drive the car rather than treat it as a garage queen. You need to drive it whilst still under warranty to get things sorted like this. Imagine what this would have cost if you had to foot the bill! Good thing is that most California owners do drive their cars more than their rear engine counterparts.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  7. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #32 4th_gear, May 28, 2017
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
    That's fine but you are only just telling us about your experience after tennis. In any case, the starter motor isn't cranked 14-15 seconds straight while the hydraulic pump does need to run for at least that long each cycle. Sustained current draws require more battery capacity.

    I think it's possible the battery is not recharging properly. It may retain sufficient surface charge that starts your car but not reliably run the roof pump for 15 seconds straight. Also not sure what you mean exactly by your car "gets driven regularly" as for example 10 short trips a day is definitely very regular but it can also kill the battery quickly if kept up. I hope your trips are fairly long done at a brisk pace.

    You probably haven't read what I posted about batteries having to make the same 3-4 week boat trip with the car from Italy. It doesn't matter if you car is new if the equally new battery got damaged on the boat trip. My car was less than 3-4 days old when the Italian AGM battery initially failed. My dealer recharged it and thought it was fine but I then experienced weird problems for the next 5 months before the battery went completely dead even though I tendered my battery everyday. My car was shipped with the wrong charger.

    At any rate, I'm just trying to provide as much helpful information to you about possible electrical supply issues so unless I come across another possible cause I think I've said enough to shine a light on the battery/current angle.

    BTW, the hydraulic pump for the roof costs $7,500 USD + labour. It's probably not so easy to swap under warranty without clear indications of a pump failure.
     
  8. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Very nice detective work Vic! Since these cars spend way more time with their drivers/owners, it really is much better if we can diagnose the problems ourselves, especially right at the moment when they rear their ugly heads.

    I hope you never have to deal with another roof issue again! ;)
     
  9. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    Back in the shop again.
     
  10. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    To infinity and beyond!
     
  11. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    Oh gee, I sure hope not. I love the car but this is really taking the shine off the new owner experience. The Porsches didn't do this and it even took the crummiest of the BMWs over 15k miles before a trip the shop for broken stuff and I dumped that one (m5) at 18k miles.
     
  12. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    wrs, I was just trying to be funny. Sorry. I have a Ferrari also, and I've owned Lotuses, so I've walked a mile in your prancing horseshoes. Good luck with it.
     
  13. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    #38 wrs, Jun 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
    So is it normal in the collective Fchat experience with dealers not to have the service department keep them appraised of the status of their car? The dealer isn't returning my calls about the situation with the top and I am suspecting that they have more important, richer big fish clients they are dealing with because yesterday the secretary told me the service manager was meeting with another client and couldn't talk to me. I never got a call back and now the car has been there two days and I have no idea if they are working on it or what.

    In addition, is it common for Ferrari not to get the problem fixed the first time? See that wasn't the case with Porsche (appliance) but it was with BMW (crap appliance). So now I am thinking of just saying well it was nice owning the Ferrari but I am going to flip it over for the latest 991tts and throw away the LTOCALI plate and put my 991TTS plate on a new 2017 991.2 TTS for an even trade.

    Maybe owning artwork is just about looking at it and that is why these cars are garage queens? Is that it? How many owners really drive their cars? I am very skeptical at this point and highly annoyed at the ineptitude of both the factory to put out a car that doesn't work and the dealer to not be able to rectify the problem straight away on the first try.

    ETA: I am now supposed to be awaiting the dreaded call from FNA which can't be good.
     
  14. mike_747

    mike_747 Formula Junior

    Dec 15, 2008
    794
    Seattle
    You have realized what I and probably many other Ferrari owners realized - and that is the cars are crap, plain and simple. But people put up with them because when they are working as designed they are still pretty cool and exclusive. But you don't deserve to be treated badly by the dealership that will be elbow deep in your wallet.
     
  15. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
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    Jan 21, 2017
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    @ wrs: hey man I'm really sorry to hear that. what dealership are you dealing with? before i bought my cali i had to deal with a shady dealer. i got so sick of it that i called american express platinum services and they contacted ferrari of north america. it was a really f* irritating experience. that being said the dealer i bought my cali t from is amazing and it was the best car buying experience i have had to date (even when compared to my purchasing experience with a RR Ghost and a continental GT). IMO ferrari customers and chat members need to be aware of these atrocious dealers. Why should the customer have to tolerate this crap. Thanks. Hope they got back to you.
     
  16. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    Well they gave me the car back. It really only failed once for them and also they had to hook it up to the main computer at FNA in NJ to get the diagnostics completely done. Now those are being analyzed so they know exactly what to replace. That might get done today and so they said just take the car for the weekend and if the top fails, take a picture of it. It's really intermittent so apparently it's a new problem they haven't seen on a Cali T.

    Anyway, while there, I spec's a 488 spider in Argento Nurburgring of course. 3 months to delivery from production and 6-8 months from deposit if I want it. It will be a 2018. Price is right and I think I will probably do it.
     
  17. Lotaz

    Lotaz Formula 3

    Nov 18, 2016
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    So you have had so many problems you are fed up with Ferrari and you going to buy another? Hope future threads are about the joy of driving a Ferrari not the trials and tribulations.
     
  18. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    Read my other threads. I have enjoyed the car but this has taken some of the enjoyment out of it. I wanted the 488 Spider to begin with and was going to just buy a used Cali T to get in line but I lucked out and found exactly what I wanted new on the floor. So I jumped on it.

    For now I am still in the Ferrari camp but I can see why people have made snide remarks about them. I had just hoped I wouldn't experience the reason but obviously I have. I bought 4 BMWs before I gave up on them. I have had two Porsches but it was time to try something else so here I am. We will see. Spec'ing a car is not buying another one, it's a prelude to it but we shall see how this works out.

    BTW, the company that makes the convertible top is German so I am told.
     
  19. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yep, Webasto makes the top for the Cali, same as Benz.
    T
     

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