great Sheehan Classiche article | Page 5 | FerrariChat

great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by rob lay, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    Brilliant! It's simply a waste of time and money. However, customers/owners should get emancipated and become critic and independent of such manipulation.
     
    Marty D likes this.
  2. TeamF1Jr

    TeamF1Jr Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2003
    2,381
    I have to assume that 1% knock off of the holdback for a Ferrari dealer having another make under the same roof does not apply to Maserati as they share the Fiat umbrella. If that's not the case, probably 95% of the dealers are getting screwed on that.
     
  3. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,874
    Not sure your point. Or, are you just being sarcastic?

    Regardless, I have said that there are some aspects of Classiche that are useful.

    CW
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    Not sarcatic at all. Nothing is purely negative, but overall it does not generate the praised added value and the issue with extortion you really brought to the point.
     
  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    Totally agree.


     
  6. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 25, 2002
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    this all reminds me of the things i hate the most about government.
    ferrari has now turned my passion into distrust and resentment.

    they could have achieved nearly the same economic result if they continued to make it a completely voluntary activity.....this slippery slope to it being an obligation is not going to end well for anybody.
     
    Marty D likes this.
  7. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    that picture is dead sexy to me, like some beautiful Italian girls still wearing their evening wear, all you know is their curves and a little cleavage showing. You are longing to peak underneath and get them warmed up before an all out spin.
     
  9. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,874
    The aspects of Classiche that I think are useful are the ability to obtain the unobtainable with factory support. For example, you need a new motor for your SWB? No problem. Write a blank check (multiple hundreds of thousands?) and you get a motor. As well, the factory can update their records to reflect the replacement engine as being the correct, corresponding motor for your chassis. So, if you race it, it was removed before your ownership or any number of things that might have caused a motor to be replaced came to pass, then, this is a valuable service.

    To a slightly lesser extent, I think the confirmation documentation that X chassis goes with Y drivetrain is useful.

    Beyond that, it's nothing more than a way for SpA to twist the arms of its dealers and make money for itself at the expense of those who buy into the certification and re-certification. What's the point of refusing to issue you a certification if you have a tubi installed on your new(er) model car? To play games? And, really, what's the point of an annual re-certificaiton if SpA isn't intending to somehow exclude non-certified cars?

    As I said, I think the Jaguar Heritage guys seem to have a better grasp of this, from what I can tell of it. But, it's Ferrari and we are all looked at as if we're bottomless sources of revenue. I have certification on some cars. Not on others. I really don't see the value in certification, however. I paid a lot of money for a book. Now, SpA has made that useless unless I let them re-inspect it each year? Goodness, if that isn't a scam, what is?

    Then, there's the RM/Sotheby's/actory auction exclusionary practices. You want to put your car in the Leggenda e Passione auction? Not unless you have your certification. Sure, there are other auctions, but this is arguably (other than Pebble's events and possibly Amelia, now) the premier Ferrari auction of the year. Arguably, prices may be higher at this event as a result.

    Or, the well-known practice of taking history out of a car. Now, for someone who has a modern car without history, I suppose this isn't a big deal. But, WHAT could a 488 owner possible care about a red book for? Seriously. What's the value proposition? IMO, there isn't one. It's a nice red book that you can display, and some will LOVE that. Which is fine. But, for someone who owns a car that does have history, SpA's know-it-all and unthinking attitude has often taken that history right out of the car because it came after the car left the gates. So, SpA will "take it back" to as it left gate status. Is this helpful or hurtful? For many years, Ralph Lauren's collection has been given accolades, but it's also been criticized for this exact practice. It's also been criticized for being better-than-factory work.

    I don't need SpA's documents to tell me what I own. I never did. Does it make it easier for a buyer to feel confident in a purchase? In ways, I think, sure. So, there may be some psychological comfort in that stamp of approval. But, then, there's the fact that there are experts out there who can advise on a purchase who may actually disagree with the factory's conclusions. So, who do you trust more? The faceless factory (with a reputation for having certified cars that shouldn't have received certification), who couldn't have cared less about these cars until they figure out a way to monetize them or a prominent, long-time advisor with a reputation to uphold and preserve?

    I think they've gone a couple of steps too far. The fact that people want to voluntarily subject themselves to it is fine with me, but it also creates an environment of acceptance. So, if one of these documentarians asks, "Does your car have certification?" and I don't, does that mean my sale will fall through? Does that mean it's worth less, so I get a lower price? I've owned my modern cars from new. Some have certification. Others do not. I don't see any difference in the authenticity of them. I don't see any justification for a difference, either. I also don't appreciate the newly-imposed requirement that I bring my certified cars to them each and every year to re-validate that certification. That's just sticking their hand back in my pocket, and it de-valued my initial investment, because they are unilaterally taking my certification status away if I don't play their game.

    The older cars are the same. Some have certification. Others not. Moreover, the process of obtaining certification is overly-demanding, intrusive, slow and ridiculously expensive, I think. The air in your tires wasn't from Modena in 19xx? Oh, we happen to have some of that bottled up. We can sell it to you at a very nice (for us) price. You don't want it? Well, then you don't get certification. Ha! I know many owners who've gone through the process and received absurd invoices. To certify cars that were perfectly fine. I sense that this is just busy work to generate revenue for themselves. And, there's a terrible conflict of interest in that.

    So, I suppose each of us will do whatever suits our interests. But, if I want to sell one of mine that doesn't have certification, and that's an issue for a buyer, then they can just keep on looking. No interest in selling to them at a discount.

    CW
     
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  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    #110 Marcel Massini, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    It must be really hot in TX now.
    Surely you noticed that covered Baby Ferrari on the left side.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    #111 Marcel Massini, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    ha
     
  13. Patrick Dixon

    Patrick Dixon Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2012
    1,083
    UK
    I think what you all are missing is that with Ferrari, like Apple, you don't actually own anything. You just pay them for the privilege of associating yourself with their brand. I am pretty sure that the 'sale' agreement will specify that you are only purchasing a licence to use their product, or if it doesn't it soon will.

    Next they will start putting end dates into the the ECU codes so that you have to go back and re-licence to be able to use the cars. Fortunately, the garage queens won't need to bother with that.
     
  14. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,874
    When SpA introduced the F50, it was a lease-only agreement. So, you couldn't technically even buy or own the car. Many prospective purchasers backed out of the deal because of it. SpA never tried that again. They may have sold the production run, and things may have turned out okay, but they pissed off a lot of owners at the time.

    CW
     
  15. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    The Classiche requirement train has already left the station. For participation in the September Maranello concourse event, Classiche was mandatory.

    As for Ferrari events, most of the organisation for these seem outsourced, even top end stuff like the Cavalcade which is organised by Canossa, and they handle all the paperwork e.g ACI Palermo does the Targa Florio Tribute etc. However, Ferrari controls the event. So I wouldn't be so sure that it is a false rumour.
     
  16. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    The idea that the certification is a choice and so it is all good is naive at best. Apart from the question mark on values, ability to participate in events, auctions etc, it is a slippery slope to further money grabbing. How long before your Classiche certified car has to be serviced by an approved shop at massive higher costs than indies?

    Best outcome here, is that the buyers sensibly ignore this nonsense, and the majority of the market continues uncertified. Hopefully a few of these Classiche-required events have a bit less attendance, and the message will start getting through. A bit like the F50 lease story of CW, they may then back off from this egregious new rules.
     
  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    For the 70th anniversary concours in Fiorano, Sunday 10 September 2017, one has to be personally invited directly by the factory and Classiche did have a huge word in the final selection as well. Owners were invited to submit up to 5 applications for Ferraris and the factory then decided what they want.

    Canossa (for Cavalcades, etc.) is just an Italian event company that does exactly what the factory (their client) wants and asks them to do so. The historic Targa Florio has zero to do with the factory. The Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia (mostly modern Ferraris) is a full factory event. The "normal" historic Mille Miglia (for classics between 1927 and 1957) is not a factory event but the organisers have direct co-operation/contact with the factory and occasionally have already refused certain cars.

    It is not false rumours.

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming Marcel
     
  19. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    I thought you'd know a bit more about espionage than us....what with your multiple identities here...jaa1359? :)
     
  20. SAFE4NOW

    SAFE4NOW F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2004
    5,378
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    Maserati is considered to be " another make " unfortunately.



    Regarding your first statement above, since you are already having them maintained by the dealer, then why is it a problem to let them sign off on your Classiche booklet? Has your dealer told you if they are going to charge you more to do it? I don't understand how its costing you more money or extortion, you car is already there, they sign off after visual inspection during the visit... everyone wins.

    I admit that I have not been provided the actual rules and regulations other than what can be seen in the sign off booklet MM has posted.

    My perspective is coming from the assumption that it will be a visual inspection only.
    Part of the original Classiche requires photos and measurements to be submitted for approval. The annual inspection seems to be a confirmation , to use your example, that someone has not added aftermarket wheels or exhaust, making it non-complaint, therefore not as it left the factory.

    If that is the real issue ( owner has paid to swap parts to " pass " Classiche initially and they do not want to have to pay to swap back and forth each year ) then how would that be on Ferrari? That's an owner who chose to game the system once and is now finding out that the system has closed that loop hole.


    And as for reading previous posts... I have, which is why I am trying to offer a non-confrontational counter points, from someone not trying to sell you or anyone else. Buy in or not, but the amount of dis-information can sometimes snowball.

    I also admit that the perspectives of actual owners is extremely valuable and I appreciate your taking the time to write about them ( and the other owners as well ! )



    S
     
  21. SAFE4NOW

    SAFE4NOW F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2004
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    Here is one question that does concern me.

    We have performed numerous Classiche inspection per client request.

    In the photo's provided by MM , the booklet says that the inspection must be performed by
    " Ferrari Authorized Ferrari Classiche Workshop " .... does that mean that if I am not chosen or we do not chose to sign up to be an authorized workshop... that our clients now need to transport their Ferrari down to San Antonio to get signed off on each year?

    S
     
  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    Steve

    I have no idea if Boardwalk Ferrari Dallas will be, already is, or is not a factory authorized Ferrari Classiche Workshop (Officina), besides being an official dealer, of course. I understand that the factory will designate/authorize between 35 and 50 (max.) such appointed Classiche Officine worldwide. So far I know of very few confirmed ones only.
    Worst case it may (possibly) mean that some cars will have to be sent to other (Classiche authorized) workshops, if the regular official Ferrari dealer is not in that select group.
    Disclaimer: AGAIN: Nothing has been confimed yet, this is just my private assumption and not official. I do not work for the factory and am just a private individual.

    Marcel Massini
     
  23. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    Seth
    +1

    best single line on the entire thread

    going back to 1978, of my nine Ferraris - all 'pre-owned' - the only one I might have considered 'classische-ing' would have been my first, the 365GTC speciale bnuilt by Enzo for Leopoldo Pirelli, CEO of 'that firm'. But it would have been supererogatory since I had personal correspondence directly with Sr Pirelli confirming that my car was indeed his and giving me - and my ultimate buyer - some interesting background. What could Classische possibly have added for a buyer?
     
  24. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    The annual certification isn't free, is it?
     
  25. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #125 intrepidcva11, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...........well, maybe not Maserati; this disease is contagious. Here is Maserati's first toe into the puddle of money that's out there waiting:


    MASERATI CLASSIC COMPANY
    100 YEARS
    MASERATI CLASSIC
    NEWS & EVENTS

    Dear Maserati Enthusiast,
    it’s with great pleasure that Maserati is proud to officially announce the creation of its Classic department, referred to Italian as Maserati Classiche.

    Maserati Classic objective is to promote Maserati’s incredible history and patrimony and support Maserati Clubs and enthusiasts.

    Maserati Classic will provide Maserati enthusiasts and Clubs access to the Classic department to obtain vehicle historical technical documentation, access to review the historic parts in our inventory, memorabilia, international club information, and merchandising (reproduction of race clothing, historical toy car models, and limited edition signed photos by our Historian).

    In addition, it is our intention to be actively involved and/or be present at Maserati Club events worldwide.

    Maserati Classic can be contacted by email by all enthusiasts by writing to

    [email protected]

    Regards
    Maserati Classiche
    Modena, Italy

    P.S. I have a very beautiful and great fun Maserati Spyder, by a wide margin these cars are the best buys in the classic/exotic car market today. 4-cam dry-sump V-8 engine designed and built by Ferrari. My car is consigned to the Saratoga Automobile Auction that takes place Friday and Saturday, September 22 & 23. Here's the Auction website url:

    https://www.saratogaautoauction.org/

    the current Saratoga Automobile Museum exhibition is a rolling display of cars already consigned to the Auction. There will be telephone bidding.
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