car design thread | Page 218 | FerrariChat

car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

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  1. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    A Tesla that looks like a Fisker?
     
  2. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    I thought the Coupe was like a caricature, but I believe the Cabrio is fitting for a 'vision' car for design & the brand.
     
  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    The coupe is over the top and not in a good way with vast expanses of surface where not much is happening.

    The cabriolet by comparison flows nicely once you get past the Buick front grill. The pinched mid section and the chrome detailing on the fender and door are just enough to break up a lot of surface between the nose and tail. That tail has a certain delicate elegance that say a BMW Z8 lacks. The scale and stance of the cabriolet plus the windshield rake all seem to float just above the road with little effort. The visual effect of an open car that probably is somewhat less so in the reality world of cd numbers. Strangely the dark red coupe has the feeling of dragging a ball and chain through wet cement. Part of that perception is the paint colors chosen for each model.
    my 2 cents
     
  4. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    the same can be said about all the worlds i work in from video games to toys to film design. all stale
     
  5. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Why do you think that is?
     
  6. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    i will try and reply to this tomorrow.
     
  7. jm2

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    For the auto industry, there are multiple reasons for the current state of affairs, regarding design sameness/banality. While I agree with Mr. Bangle in principle, it's easy for him to be on the sidelines and be critical. My personal spin is because the investments required in the car industry are so great (1Billion $ +) for a new program, no one is willing to take any risks. All the design teams play it safe. Senior management is risk averse and is afraid of making an expensive mistake. Tesla, the darling of the media had an opportunity to do a clean sheet of paper design with no legacy or baggage of an existing brand. They chose to pay it safe and do a conventionally designed sedan. A nice one mind you, but still very conventional looking. Why? Because they wanted to appeal to the greatest number of people, and mitigating any risk.
    I believe Hollywood is i the same situation. The investments necessary to do a movie are astronomical, and no one wants to do a money losing dud. So they keep redoing the same formulas hoping for that blockbuster hit. Appeal to the lowest common denominator, and don't risk offending anyone. And I can surmise the same for the 'popular' music business. Everyone appears to be in a creative rut. No one wants to stand out and lead or break away fro the pack.
    So when people say 'all cars look the same', there's a reason for that. It's not a lack of talent amongst the designers, but an averse to risk holding their hands.
    And by the way, you can't blame it all on aero & safety regulations.......that's just a cop out as far as I'm concerned.
    Just my $.02.
     
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  8. Jeff Kennedy

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    I see this as the exaggerated sketch of the car it is intending to be.
     
  9. NeuroBeaker

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    Chris Bangle was pretty radical during his time at BMW though, wasn't he? I actually had a similar initial reception to his designs that I did to the design revolution you ushered in at Cadillac. I thought it was a big jump in design nomenclature for each brand and initially recoiled a little bit. As the shock wore off and I got used to them, I came to really appreciate what had been done - so much so that now I would very happily buy and drive either a Cadillac from your era or a BMW from Bangle's era. It seems like he had skin in the game and, like you, did something more radical than most others were doing at the time. I'd say you both have pretty good standing upon which to comment on the banality of automotive design. ;)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  10. Jeff Kennedy

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    I want to take John's comment a bit further. Design can be creative but they need to work in an environment where that is encouraged and nurtured by Design management and, even more importantly, by the most senior levels of corporate management. I view the current situation as everyone looking around to see if someone else will make the plunge of leading since they are too risk adverse themselves and lack any conviction. I will also toss in that when the VP level of design has ascended by being an expert butt kissing politician in lieu of superior design talent to expect design leadership is a lost cause. I want to blame that design leader but the real blame sits in the C-suite and the board room where they have opted for a nice pliable bureaucrat instead of a committed advocate for the sanctity of design.

    Absolutely, the cost of new developments is staggering and no one wants a billion dollar epic fail. But at the same time spending all that money to make what appears to be not much more than a mid-cycle re-fresh is a waste of resources. But I am thinking that even worse if what we are getting too much of - I have no clue where I am or where I am going so lets just keep throwing crap at the wall; who cares if the one car has 5 competing designs in it.

    If is tragic to watch when good designers are demoralized because every time they give good proposals "management" repeatedly keeps selecting the worst choice.
     
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  11. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Yes, Chris was quite radical for his time. Everyone was horrified he was changing BMW's design language.............which everyone else wound up copying. At the time I didn't think the 'Bangle butt' was such a big deal, but the customer outcry made it clear that change of that magnitude wasn't acceptable.........yet sales increased. While myself or my team really didn't 'invent' art & science, we tried to take it to the next level and reduce all the controversy. The CTS Coupe & Wagon were the results of that strategy. Even those cars were very controversial to the mainstream public.
    The general public can only accept a certain amount of change before they get uncomfortable. I believe the car companies understand this and are inclined to play it safe and do more of the same every time. No one wants another Aztek or the GM Minivans known as the 'Dustbusters'
     
  12. jm2

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  13. jm2

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    This made me laugh. The other night my friends & I were having dinner and we were talking about how some cars have several design themes on them..........you just want to yell at them....JUST CHOOSE ONE THEME AND EXECUTE IT WELL! But alas, no one is listening.
     
  14. NeuroBeaker

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    Initially, yes. It took me a while to get over the initial shock of the change, but I really do appreciate and admire them now. Those cars set Cadillac on a design path that I really like, whereas Cadillac's brand image was always as a comfortable "old man's" aspirational car in the past, rather than an aspirational stylish car I now want as someone in his 30s. :)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  15. Jeff Kennedy

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    And the Emperor has no clothes because that crap got approved for production. Are they all blind?
     
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  16. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    It amazes me anyone got where they were going in those dust busters. I remember being in one... and I never get car sick... but that windshield did something to me... and we had to go back to the rental car place and get a different van. It was pretty terrible.

    Remember the Pontiac Montana? That AWD minivan? I remeber the magazines going crazy for it.

    I am so glad you mentioned that everyone copied the Bangle cars. He got such **** for it... bmw sales went through the roof... and people talked about how ugly it was... but people kept buying... and buying... and buying... and Now even a Mercedes S class has some bangle butt LOL
     
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  17. jm2

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    From the NYT:Supercruise will be followed next year by Cadillac’s introduction of a new small sport-utility vehicle, called the XT4. That model is the first to break from the angular styling of other Cadillacs, setting the company on a new design path.
    The whole push is a giant gamble. Returning the luster to a damaged brand is no easy task, and previous attempts by G.M. have fallen short. The overhaul Mr. de Nysschen is leading will cost the automaker several billion dollars by 2020, by which time its model line will most likely have been completely remade.

    Success, however, would resurrect what was once one of the most admired American brand names — one that was long a synonym for luxury.

    It will take a lot to change consumer perceptions, too. Chris Kanuit, a retired manufacturing executive in Jacksonville, Fla., has considered buying Cadillacs a few times in the last several years, but always ended up sticking with BMW instead.
    “You look at a Cadillac and there’s a lot of bling,” he said. “They have a splashy look. BMW is not as showy.”

    That is one of the next issues Cadillac will address, Mr. de Nysschen said. The forthcoming XT4 S.U.V. will have some of the design elements Cadillacs are known for — the distinctive grille and the vertical lighting theme. But the wedge-shaped look of the current models is on the way out.

    The new look will be more curvaceous and sculpted, he said. The beltline — the line where the doors meet the windows — will be lowered, and the wheels moved closer to the corners.
    “They will be drivers’ cars,” Mr. de Nysschen said.

    The photo is someone's guess and could or could not be accurate Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  18. bitzman

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    Saw the Mercedes Vision concept Maybach 6 cabriolet at Pebble. Looked at it more than the gullwing red concept of the same car last year. Any opinions to counter mine? I think now that it steals a lot from the one off Rolls Hyperion that Jason Castriota
    did for Pininfarina when they had a special order. Here’s my take on the styling:

    SIDE: the coupe is just too exaggerated to believe, maybe needs 10% of the length taken out between the front wheels and the firewall. The roofline when the convertible top is up is very stylish, like a coupe, with good to the side visibility. I have seen two types of wheels on it, the mag wheels of the coupe and the more many bladed mags (simulating wire wheels at a distance) of the roadster. Side indentation to emphasize curving sides is made more acceptable by chrome along its edge.

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    FRONT: The front grille is very strong and dynamic, though you wonder if it will meet crash standards. The body color front spoiler is well integrated, and gets away from the flat black spoilers.

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    The bonnet opening in two halves (like old Rolls Royce Silver Cloud) might be welcome, especially if you ever had a rearward hinged one piece hood fly up and smash your windshield as I have.

    REAR: Very old-fashioned shape to the tail, similar to 1961 E-type Jaguar. Wonder if that under tray rear spoiler is going to be enough to prevent rear end lift. The coupe had a tunnel back (inset rear window) split window roofline but fortunately the convertible doesn’t have these gimmicks.

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    INTERIOR: I didn’t see the interior of the roadster at Pebble but the picture of the coupe interior found online looks very space age, without any wood as they describe in the press release.
    did for Pininfarina to a client special order but that was in 2008 so this was started a long time later.
    Here’s my take on the styling:

    SIDE: the coupe is just too exaggerated to believe, maybe needs 10% of the length taken out between the front wheels and the firewall. The roofline when the convertible top is up is very stylish, like a coupe, with good to the side visibility. I have seen two types of wheels on it, the mag wheels of the coupe and the more many bladed mags (simulating wire wheels at a distance) of the roadster. Side indentation to emphasize curving sides is made more acceptable by chrome along its edge.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Pin It

    FRONT: The front grille is very strong and dynamic, though you wonder if it will meet crash standards. The body color front spoiler is well integrated, and gets away from the flat black spoilers.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Pin It

    The bonnet opening in two halves (like old Rolls Royce Silver Cloud) might be welcome, especially if you ever had a rearward hinged one piece hood fly up and smash your windshield as I have.

    REAR: Very old-fashioned shape to the tail, similar to 1961 E-type Jaguar. Wonder if that under tray rear spoiler is going to be enough to prevent rear end lift. The coupe had a tunnel back (inset rear window) split window roofline but fortunately the convertible doesn’t have these gimmicks.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Pin It

    INTERIOR: I didn’t see the interior of the roadster at Pebble but the picture of the coupe interior found online looks very space age, without any wood as they describe in the press release.
     
  19. of2worlds

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    Is he hinting at what a new mid-engine edition Cadillac would look like?
     
  20. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Don't know yet.
     
  21. energy88

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    If the photo is close to the final variant, I definitely like it.

    First, because it looks like an SUV rather than a mini-van like so many other SUVs are starting to look. Second, I like the "clean" look on the rear. At first, I didn't know if I liked the tail lights extending all the way up the C-pillar, a la Honda CR-V. But the treatment is so much cleaner than the CR-V and avoids looking gaudy. I found some photos on google of the XT4 without that vertical light treatment, and those below the window tail lights looked just mundane. I also noticed that the backlight in the pictured vehicle is flat which seems to allow the tall tail light treatment to exist tastefully. Again, photos on google of a curved backlight were not as appealing. I just hope Caddy doesn't overprice the XT4.
     
  22. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If it is Wow! Wow! Wow! Sign me up for the waiting list!
     
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  23. Jeff Kennedy

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    This article might as well have been written by Johann's person PR flack. They even found someone that want's a "me too" BMW; guess it would have been way too obvious if it was a current Audi owner. This is written like Cadillac is already dead but Johann is it's Moses leading it to the promised land - Cadillac scent and espresso bar and all.

    As for the illustration, it is only an illustration that might or might not be based upon reliable information. The tail does look like John's CTS Wagon - a very good thing.
     
  24. jm2

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    I'm suspicious of the rendering, but we'll find out.
     
  25. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Remember how the C7 design profile showing that front fender detail was leaked long before it was official?
    This Cadillac image is much more artistic....
     

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