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Sleep

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by the_stig, Apr 4, 2014.

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  1. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    I need some help getting restorative sleep.
    I've always had trouble falling asleep esp if traveling or facing an adventure or whatever.
    Always had a very active mind - can't seem to shut down.
    Typical suggestions about relaxation don't work for me.
    Now I'm coming off years of anti-depressants and sleeping pills.
    Insomnia was an intense side effect of some of the anti-depressants, particularly the last one.
    I was hoping and praying that quitting the meds would get me back on a normal sleep cycle but no such luck.
    No matter how tired I can't seem to fall asleep until about sunrise and then sleep sometimes until early afternoon.
    Please, no advice about forcing back to a normal schedule by staying up - I've tried that.
    No sleep study - tried it once - it was stupid. A really dumb idea for someone who can't sleep in their own bed. Trying to sleep in a strange place with 40 sensors cemented to you on a schedule that made no sense at all was just ridiculous. Ended up leaving at 2:30am after tossing and turning for 4 hours.
    Are there any apps / tapes/ etc. that are really effective that someone here has personal experience with?
    Any future in hypnosis?
    Desperate to get restorative sleep so that I can make progress in other areas like exercise. Hard to exercise when you feel like crap from not sleeping properly and I'm missing out on life's pleasures by being unwilling / unable to travel etc.
    Thanks guys!


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  2. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 TexasF355F1, Apr 4, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
    Good luck man, hopefully you can find a solution. I've been having difficulty sleeping lately as well. I even gave up caffeine for a little over a week and that didn't do anything for me.

    I had my brain scanned (EEG I think?), and it was discovered my brain activity spiked dramatically in a sleep state, and it was the opposite when awake. I should post my results. I've been seeing a therapist since 2011 and it's definitely helped as I did most of my (what I call) emotional thinking while laying in bed. Creating scenarios in my head, going over things I did or should have done, etc. I've gotten away from the for the most part, but it's still there to an extent.

    As far as exercising when you feel like crap/exhausted is actually one of the best times to exercise. I've heard that's why NFL teams hit the gym immediately once they get back to town after a game. You're so exhausted, but still worked up and you won't sleep well. Exercising helps that. I do it a lot and I think it does help. I actually feel more awake and not quite as out of it when I leave. And I tend to have better workouts when I feel this way too. In a way, you're also just creating an excuse to not go to the gym. It doesn't have to me strenuous, just hop on the bike or treadmill for 20-30 minutes and do a couple of sets with weights. Give it a shot.

    Good luck man. You're not the only one.
     
  3. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Sep 30, 2005
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    OCD, by chance?

    I've wrestled with this most of my life. Waaaay over active brain, irrational fears, songs stuck in my head...I was the only 8 year old I knew who regularly and fully watched Johnny Carson :). Seems to be kind of hit or miss for me and depends largely upon stress, activity level, etc. but I too suffer from the pre trip over active brain thing, which is really difficult when you consider I'm usually flying the airplane! Tapes, etc never worked for me, though I will have a hard time passing out without some kind of white noise like a fan. I hear EVERYTHING. Don't know about hypnosis, but a friend of mine tried it and was just frustrated.

    When I first started flying, I got hit with serious motion sickness and had to take anti-emetics (only when flying with an instructor - not PIC, FAA!) to get over the hump and acclimate to the new sensations. I discovered that several hours after my flight, I would be absolutely exhausted from the drug. Even non drowsy Dramamine has that effect. As far as I know, it is not habit forming and works like a charm. In fact, it ended up helping me get on a normal sleep cycle. I'm not necessarily endorsing this; of course you should ask a doctor and most likely can't get promethazine or anything like that without a prescription anyway. I know they use it to treat vertigo, too.

    Now that motion sickness is mostly behind me and I haven't had an anti emetic in years, occasionally I'll drink neuro sleep if I'm feeling jittery. I didn't think it would work and just drank some on a whim once when I intended to stay out and had to go home! I don't know if it's placebo or not, but I definitely sleep. In fact, I had a pretty good bout of insomnia about three years ago, and it shoved me right on through.

    Anyway, not exactly what you were asking about, but know that I feel your pain :)
     
  4. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Interesting you mention hearing everything. Even my wife's breathing bothers me and if I wear ear plugs I hear my own pulse and blood flow.
     
  5. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    I've got a similar issue with inability to shut off my mind and I can't go to sleep until I'm completely exhausted. There isn't a way to "force" yourself onto a normal schedule, I've tried. I've also tried sleeping pills with zero success... in fact if you don't go to sleep quickly, it seems to get me wired from the drowsy point on.

    I gave up trying to fight it and have embraced it for what it is. I usually sleep from 5-8am, then take a couple hr nap in the afternoon and I feel well rested. The one suggestion I have (aside from accepting it) is getting a fan for white noise. It really helps with deep restful sleep and it masks the outside noises that may spark your mind effectively.
     
  6. Bullitt1

    Bullitt1 Formula Junior

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  7. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    Takes me close to an hour to fall asleep every night. I get into bed at 10PM usually and have to get up around 4-5AM so as you can imagine...I get pissed if I'm still awake after midnight. Worst was when I didn't fall asleep til 3:45AM and had to wake up at 4AM...yeah, actually got 15 minutes of sleep.

    No ideas for you unfortunately. I wear earplugs and workout that may help, but probably not. If I have a lot of things I'm thinking about (usually work related), I can't do anything to stop and sleep until I take care of the work...which is the next day. :( Going on vacation later today should help. ;)
     
  8. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Accepting it seems to cause a lot less stress than laying in bed wishing I was asleep! So jealous of my wife who can be sound asleep 2 minutes after head hits pillow.
    Accepting it has major consequences however: missing out on a trip with a friend tomorrow for example because I can't commit to a time. Canceled most travel plans for this year - no point going somewhere to miss most of the activities.
    Not to mention the small matter of earning a living. Luckily I'm self-employed but it is still a major problem.
     
  9. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    One hour to fall asleep was me on my best day for most of my life. Now that's right out the window. Went to bed about 11:00pm last night - hard physical day and was genuinely tired. Might have fallen asleep for an hour maybe? Then up reading until about 7:00am after knowing I just wasn't going to fall asleep.
    Part of the problem is that it has now gone on so long I just have no expectation of a normal night of sleep I guess.
     
  10. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    OK, here's some medical advice if you want to try a safe, well-proven remedy for this modern problem of sleep deprivation.

    MAGNESIUM-deficiency.

    If you drink coffee, beer or any other booze and you are over 40 years old, work out and sweat a lot, often miss fresh fruits and vegetables in your diet, you may well have some degree of magnesium deficiency. Magnesium is water-soluble and if you peee or sweat often, you are a prime candidate for deficiency of electrolytes if your diet is not able to keep up. About 45% of middle-age persons are magnesium-deficient and don't know it. Our fast food, supermarket processed food sources are awful for nutrition.

    Magnesium is essential for many bodily functions to work properly. One of these is your nervous system as it relates to muscle control. In order to fall asleep, your brain has to be able to completely calm your muscles (tone them down) before you can fall asleep. If it can't, you won't be able to fall asleep even if you feel dead tired.

    Magnesium deficiency can be deadly in severe cases. It can cause irregular heartbeats, muscle spasms and cramps.

    Try taking magnesium supplements. The most readily-available and well-absorbed form is magnesium-citrate. Consult your doctor or nutritionist for a suitable dose. You can also be tested for a deficiency.

    In the old days people put "epsom salt" in their baths to calm down and relax - epsom salt is magnesium sulphate. It calms your muscles so you can relax, your heart will beat more smoothly and you can sleep better. We've forgotten some very simple, useful old remedies.
     
  11. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I remember my dad telling me he would lay in bed thinking of everything he needed to do the next day. Many times he'd go to the office at 2:30-3am. However hes always been able to fall asleep in seconds, he just can't stay asleep.

    I often didn't see him until the weekend when he was working close to hundred hour weeks.
     
  12. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Here I was just looking at Magnesium supplements online, I come back to check this thread, and the first thing I see is 4th_gear talking about Magnesium! Is this place great or what?
    I'm picking up some Magnesium tonight and going to try the Neuro Sleep drink although I have some reservations about Melatonin. Seem to recall it gave me vivid dreams in the past.
    Thank you to everyone who has posted even if I have not directly responded to your remarks I am reading and considering everything.
    Ferrarichat almost never disappoints!
     
  13. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Hope it works for you!
     
  14. tjacoby

    tjacoby F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    if I miss 3-4 days of exercise (1-2 hours a day typically), I'm not sleeping. I'm not sleeping, I don't feel like exercising but that's "just a feeling" to work through to get back on track.

    No idea if this is useful or helpful to your situation. Might suggest a blood test to check for Magnesium deficiency, if there are tests available? random guessing over the Internet can F you up pretty good.
     
  15. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Took a 250Mg Magnesium tablet shortly before bed last night and almost immediately felt sleepy! Slept from maybe 11:30 to 5:30 which hasn't happened (without chemical aid) in 8 months at least! Whoo hoo!
    It wasn't dead solid sleep - in a way it was a bit strange - but I woke feeling rested and pretty good for a change. Even at 5:30am I was able to fall back to sleep and got several more hours.
    Cautiously optimistic but Magnesium is definitely on the menu again tonight!
     
  16. Dakota

    Dakota Formula Junior

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    You can drink yourself to the floor. Has helped me sleep on multiple occasions.
     
  17. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Good to see that you managed to sleep better last night. Magnesium balance is critical for good health and is much more important as a person ages. I don't quite understand the full process but something does happen as a person enters middle age and different people are affected to different degrees. If you research past news items on celebrities you'll find many instances when they were hospitalized for cardiac arrhythmia and some of them died from it, usually because they were experiencing dietary disturbances (like alcoholism, anorexia, bulimia, food poisoning or bizarre dieting). If you lose enough electrolytes to cause extensive muscle cramping, your heart can malfunction, get damaged and even stop. It's muscle tissue.

    250 mg/day is well within normally tolerated doses of magnesium assuming that you do not have other significant sources of magnesium intake. Too much magnesium will give you diarrhoea. Not all forms of magnesium supplements are absorbed to the same degree. Theoretically, a tablet may claim 100 mg Mg by weight but then absorption may just be 15% in some cases. So you have to be careful comparing effective dose from one supplement vs another for the same electrolyte.

    I believe the best absorbed form of magnesium supplement is the amino acid-chelated form but they're harder to find. Magnesium citrate is the most widely-available well-absorbed form. Magnesium oxide tablets are probably the worst, barely useful. Rate of absorption is key when gauging what effective dose you are actually taking. The quality brands will publish test results showing how well their supplements are absorbed by the body.
     
  18. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
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    I've had this issue ever since I was a kid, very tough time falling asleep. I've found that white noise seems to help a lot for me and absolutely no caffeine after noon and I try to stay away from chocolate at night. I only figured out the white noise thing when I had kids and they had a noise machine and we'd hear it on the baby monitor. I'm the only one I know who slept better once I had kids :).
     
  19. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Second night: felt sleepy after taking Magnesium but had trouble falling asleep, lot of trouble staying asleep and a pretty frightening dream. Finally gave up a little while ago and got up after laying there for a couple of hours frustrated and a little upset.
    The only stuff I could find locally was Magnesium Oxide and I bought it knowing full well it wasn't the most effective form. Hard to tell if it is causing any stomach upset as I'm getting over a cold and everything is a bit out of sorts.
     
  20. Vinny Bourne

    Vinny Bourne Formula Junior

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  21. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    Slept well last night, but that's because I was completely drained of all energy by the beach. Hot sun on the beach followed by cold atlantic ocean water with huge waves throwing me around. Gets me everytime...the only thing that makes me exhausted and want to sleep. :/
     
  22. SuperJ

    SuperJ F1 Rookie

    Dec 22, 2008
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    I was having problems sleeping and recently started going to an acupuncturist. Holy moly! Best thing ever. I felt like my mind and body got rebooted! Been sleeping well ever since!
     
  23. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    I've heard this from a few other people (the "rebooting" part mostly), but always figured it had to be too good to be true. Maybe that's not the case! How long had you been dealing with insomnia?
     
  24. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Really? Huh. Never would have thought of acupuncture. Total reboot is kind of what I'm thinking I need.
     
  25. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    I take Mg supplements throughout the day because I need to be very active and physical. Mg deficiency affects much more than just your sleep so it's not really a sleeping aid to be taken just before bedtime.

    I found this link to have very good information on magnesium deficiency. Just watch it when you determine how much to take, always start with a lower amount and slowly work up. Each person has a different tolerance. Back off if it upsets your stomach. Remember dosage is dependent on how much you actually absorb and each form of magnesium supplement will deliver a different absorbed amount even if the label should show what appears to be an identical "dosage" on each of the bottles.

    You can also get magnesium from your diet. Bananas are a safe and convenient source.

    If you take responsibility for your own health you have to really do your research and be methodical. Don't jump around and try everything. Try to understand your condition and your lifestyle issues, determine what you are missing and then embark on a strategy and thoroughly test it out. Not everyone is able to do this successfully. I was a cancer researcher in my former career, my brother was an immunopharmacologist and our father was a surgeon. You must be very methodical and able to understand and utilize scientific data.
     

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