"Over-Powered" Ghibli SS AM115 ? | FerrariChat

"Over-Powered" Ghibli SS AM115 ?

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by PogueMahone, Aug 22, 2013.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    I've just heard from an Italian guy about an original factory-upgraded engine.

    Anyone has informayion about sth like that ?

    THx.
     
  2. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2007
    501
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    The factory designed but did not make a four valve engine cylinder head for the Ghibli. Supposedly about five of the castings, done out of house, were made. I am told that is was done as a favor for client who paid the factory to do the design work and to arrange to get the work done for the client. It was mentioned that the cost for the design work was about $25,000 but I can't verify that. I have been told that one such converted engine was once sitting in a dealer showroom in Germany. Walter would probably know more about this than I do so perhaps he can fill you in.

    Elliot
     
  3. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,367
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Wow that is interesting!

    I for one would be fascinated to hear more about that. This is the first I've ever heard it mentioned. I wonder if Mark S. can comment? This wasn't something that showed on on the Thepenier Boras.

    Bob S.

     
  4. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    The infos I've got at the moment :

    The 1st Owner of my car, a long time Maserati Owner, and too, the one who sponsorized and bought back the Bora Gr.4, ordered it in 1969 w/ a 4 valves per cylinder engine.

    (I'm waiting for the copy of the original order form and some other docts of interest).

    After that, I don' know yet how long did it take, the factory answered the Importer that it was impossible to get such a conversion.

    But the factory certified in 11/1969 that the car ordered would have an upgraded and more powerful engine.
     
  5. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Trying to find further infos about that, I found infos about the 2 giblis modified by Drogo.

    1 of them (ordered by the mean of the UK Importer ?) being not so far from me.
     
  6. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    I was wrong. THe car located down there was not bought via the UK importer.

    The current Owner is an Englishman living down there, but the car was ordered via the Maserati subsidiary in Genova - Italy, by a long time Maserati buyer.
     
  7. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,338
    Hershey, PA
    I suspect that some how it got lost in translation and the 4 valve head reference are really about the switch made on Ghiblis from 2 plug heads to single plug which occurred around that time frame.
     
  8. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Absolutely not, since we are speaking about 4,9L SS, that never got the twin plug, am I right ?

    2nd, in every language, 4 has nothing to do with 2 or even 1.

    "4 soupapes par cylindres" as it was oredered, can only be translated in Italian by "4 valvole per cilindri", in English by "4 valves head", in German "4 ventiler..."

    Besides, it was a special order (not executed on that point) made on its Customer's request.

    Not a pb of translation.
     
  9. 3500 GT

    3500 GT Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2008
    1,397
    USA
    Full Name:
    Gentleman Racer
    How about some more information, details, build sheet, photos, chassis number, etc.

    Best.

    ~Trev
     
  10. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    I guess it's unuseful since someone who had not the documents in hands decided that here in France we cannot read or write French or Italian, and cannot make a difference between a "4", a "2" and a "1".

    Will PM you Trev.

    As regards pics, the car is due to get a complete resto since it's no more in its original config.

    I'm waiting for proposals from Italy, even if I think I already know where will be done the engine and gearbox, and the upholsterry.

    I have to make up my mind for the body/chassis, but have not yet received any proposals to help me choose.
     
  11. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,338
    Hershey, PA
    Then post a copy of the build sheet, as the owner of a thepenier special order Ghibli SS I'd love to see it.
     
  12. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2006
    5,834
    Burradoo... Actually
    Full Name:
    Graeme
    While this thread is on rare 4 valve heads and there are some knowledgeable peaople on here,
    Which Ghibili engines had the bathtub heads with flat top pistons?

    Regards
    Graeme
     
  13. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    1- Then post a copy of where I made a mistake in my text between 4 valves / cylinder and twin spark plugs !

    2- The last time I've sent documents to a "specialist", he promised to send me back infos about my cars, and I've got nothing.

    3- Conclusion, I won't post anything to make people chat and cheat.

    4- But the other people are welcome to come and see in person. Provence is a very nice and warm region located near the French Riviera.
     
  14. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Sorry Graeme,

    It's not about 4 valve heads since it's admitted that they never existed.

    Even if some Customers tried to order them.

    It's only about the real existence, or not (it's a question, not an affirmation) of "over-powerered" Ghibli, as I found a line about that on another website.

    It was only an "info" I found, not a Biblic Truth.
     
  15. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,367
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    You've started a very confusing thread so naturally people are questioning just what you're getting at.

    Please don't get terribly defensive, we're just not sure what you are trying to say.

    Maybe a summary restatement of your questions and then another summary statement as to what you've actually verified with references.

    Followed by the rumors separately.

    Because right now it's not at all clear.


     
  16. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Sorry Staatsof, my English is far from being perfect, but I could not accept that I cannot read (and understand) an order-form spelled in French...

    So my 1st question, again :

    I've just heard from an Italian guy about an original factory-upgraded engine.

    Anyone has informayion about sth like that ?

    As soon as I have more concrete infos, will PM you.

    Thx for your kind attention.
     
  17. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
    829
    London UK
    Full Name:
    Mark Oliver
    Hi PogueMahone, I certainly recall an article in Octane magazine a few years ago concerning a Ghibli special ordered by a well known serial Maserati (and Ferrari) customer from Genoa by the name of Enrico Wax. His car had some cosmetic body modification, and I am fairly sure that the text said it had been specified with a high performance engine or something similar - although nothing to the extent of 4 valve heads If I remember correctly.
    But obviously in that era and for those important enough to the factory, many things were possible...
    I for one would be fascinated to know more, it would surely be a machime to behold! I hope some more knowledgeable souls on the forum will shortly chime in to help you.
    BTW your English shames my French.

    Salut!


    Mark.
     
  18. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2007
    501
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    I can verify that at least one casting for a four valve cylinder head for either a 4.7 liter or 4.9 liter V-8 was actually made. It sat, at one time, in a collection of parts in the Modena area and was physically seen by my mechanical who has extensive exposure to Maserati automobiles and it was not for some racing engine.

    Elliot
     
  19. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,367
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    No problem. With rumored talk about some 4 valve head castings mixed into the discussion it's gotten a bit confusing to sort out.

    People have taken the old V8 and modified the breathing a bit with larger valves , porting etc. to produce almost 400 HP for a Bora but that also mean't much higher fuel consumption. I can only imagine that it was terribly expensive when compared with normal hot roding of American V8's. There's just so much you can do with Ford/Chrysler/Chevy V8s rather cheaply so we naturally have very different sensibilities about this sort of work.

     
  20. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    My car was ordered to get a 4-valves engine, but did not get it.
     
  21. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Thx Mark !!

    However, Dr Wax's car is the one that is located in the S-East of France.

    It was featured in a French mag too in 03/2010.

    The Owner is an old Englisman retired down there, the reason why the car is UK registered, and maybe, why it was featured first in Octane ?

    He provides people ith hand-written documents only...

    Don't know i it was the habit at that time...

    On my own, I think the car was modified by Drogo.

    Typical 250GT by Drogo vertical air-vents, typical Drogo upholstery finish.

    Take a look too to the 2 250GT modified that look like Ghiblis, above all from a side view.

    In do not beleive this car was modified by Maserati as he states.

    Besides, I found a pic of a 2nd look-aline car, where it was mentionned that the car could have been modified by Drogo too, on the Shah of Persia's request.

    But it's only my opinion !
     
  22. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2006
    3,008
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    #22 thecarnut, Aug 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    According to the factory documentation what modifications did the engine get?

    As you probably know the factory, via Fabio Collina, can provide you a copy of your car's technical characteristics, which would include modifications that were made to the engine.

    For your reference, I enclosed the technical characteristics document of one of my cars. The document is hard to read but contains a lot of valuable information. At the end of the engine section you will see an area where "special characteristics" are listed.

    Ivan
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. PogueMahone

    PogueMahone Formula Junior

    Oct 22, 2011
    464
    MC
    Full Name:
    PMD
    Thx Ivan.

    I'm already in touch with the factory, but they asked me to wait September/October since they still were in vacations...

    But, obviously, I will buy all the documents they proposed to me.

    I'm looking for an SS Owner's book, and spare parts manual (if there's any different than the one for 4.7L).

    Is there any workshop manual too ?
     
  24. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2006
    3,008
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    You are correct, Fabio is on vacation and will be back the first week of September.

    The SS owner's manual is different from the 4.7. Luckily the factory has made an excellent reproduction which comes with the Ghibli Classiche Kit. The kit also includes a copy of the parts manual although for some unknown reason it was not reproduced with the correct dark brown color of the original. I highly recommend you purchase a kit.
    Maserati Classiche - Ghibli - MASERATI Store

    You can also download the manuals from my website:
    The Car Nut - Maserati Manuals and Brochures

    There was no workshop manual published for the Ghibli, although the owner's manual does include some repair information. You can also use the engine section of the QP3 manual as it contains a lot of relevant information. That manual is also available for download from my website.

    In addition to the documents the factory offered you, in your car's files are most likely letters between the factory and the first owner which could reveal a wealth of information, especially on a car with special features. I recommend you visit Fabio personally as copies of these letters are normally not offered.

    Keep us posted as to what you learn as we enjoy learning about special things the factory did.

    Ivan
     
  25. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,060
    Apropos documentation, I'm still not clear on what the difference is between the:

    "1) Car Technical and Aesthetic characteristics document (document on parchment paper)"

    and

    " 2) Certificate of Origin - Official document signed by a Maserati Authorized Representative"

    and why I would choose one or the other, or if in fact both are necessary, for different purposes. I've spoken to Mr. Collina, and while he's explained what each contains, it wasn't as clear why one would choose one over the other.

    Anyone?
     

Share This Page