Maserati 6 engine: 3500 vs 4000 | FerrariChat

Maserati 6 engine: 3500 vs 4000

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Wizz, May 15, 2017.

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  1. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    I have a Maserati 3500 GT which is in very bad shape.
    There is a Maserati Mistral 4000 engine for sale.
    You can see where I'm going with this.

    I understand that the 4.0 had four engine mounts, compared to the 2 mounts for the 3.5.
    So it is not a simple swap.

    Yes, I understand completely the moral objections to putting in the wrong engine, but if
    you saw what engine was in the car now, ANY Maserati engine would be big improvement.
    This is a car which will never be original, so one does what one can.

    So...other than the aesthetic issues of putting in an inappropriate engine, does anyone have an idea of the magnitude of technical difficulty in doing so?
    I'm looking at a gearbox from a Mistral 4.0 to match it, the S5-20.

    My totally uninformed guess is that, other than fabricating the mounts themselves and a perhaps a bit of minor clearance issues in the transmission hump around the gear lever,
    and the gear lever being centred rather than offset to one side, it should in theory be possible.
    Even if there is a moderate modification to the chassis rail needed, well, I have several
    corrections to make on that front anyway. This car has been abused.

    Anyone have any experience or knowledgeable advice?
    Surely this question has come up before?

    Thanks in advance
    Jim
     
  2. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2004
    1,851
    Seattle
    Full Name:
    Carguytour
    Let me take a stab at this.
    First you have it 180 degrees wrong.
    The 4.0 liter engine has 2 mounts and the 3.5 has the 4.
    Adapting the 4.0 engine is NOT so easy and will be costly if done right.
    Why not just put a 350 small block in it and call it good. Mate it to a T10 4 speed and have some fun for under $3,000 bucks, all in.
    Good luck.
    Why don't you post some photos so we can see this abused Maserati?
    Ciao,
    FGM
     
  3. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    >>First you have it 180 degrees wrong.
    >>The 4.0 liter engine has 2 mounts and the 3.5 has the 4.
    Thanks for correcting. At least I knew there was a mismatch to consider...

    >>Adapting the 4.0 engine is NOT so easy and will be costly if done right.
    That's certainly what I feared, which is why I asked.
    Any other info *very* much appreciated.
    There will be chassis welding and newly fabricated engine mounts no matter what I do, but I'd like to avoid rookie pitfalls.
    For example, you don't want to build something you can't change the clutch on, and that normally requires taking the gearbox out through the passenger compartment.

    >>Why not just put a 350 small block in it and call it good. Mate it to a T10 4 speed and have some fun for under $3,000 bucks, all in.
    Well, several reasons.
    (1) That's what's in it now--the engine from a 1972 pickup truck. That's what I want to consider getting rid of. It lacks a certain (ahem) aura of authenticity, not to mention the unpleasant noise and my general dislike of V8s. So the obvious thing is to at least consider going back to (approximately) the right engine.
    (2) A secondary reason is that were I live, all engine swaps are illegal. I might get away with a 3.5-to-4.0 Maserati swap because they look the same. I might conceivably get away with keeping the V8 if I can find proof the swap was done over 30 years ago. I think it was, but there is no way to prove it. The only 100% certain way to be able to register the car at all is to put a Maserati 3500 back in.
    (3) The reason for considering the 4000 is that a relatively nice one is currently available, as is a relatively nice matching ZF S5-20 gearbox. The correct ZF S5-17 for the 3500 engine is extremely rare and expensive and the only 3500 engine for sale at the moment is incomplete. I'd also really like the extra displacement.

    Equal time for the opposing viewpoint?
    Of course, the main reason to NOT consider putting in any Maserati engine is the extra $70-100k it will cost. Say 20k for the engine, 10k for the gearbox, 20-40k to rebuild both, plus maybe 20k to track down the intake and accessories. Plus, I insist on fuel injection, so that's not free.
    If somebody could sell me a fully rebuilt 3500 engine and gearbox for (say) 40k, even without the injection system, I'd do it in a heartbeat--but that's not likely to happen.

    The secondary reason is that, no matter how much I dislike it, the V8 would be vastly easier to find parts for and rebuild, more powerful, far more reliable, and far easier to maintain.
    Keeping and rebuilding the V8 is my current default plan, but I'm not entirely happy with it and I still have the registration problem, so I'm asking for input on the likely problems to put in the 4.0 Maserati 6 I have found.

    Jim
     
  4. AM1220552

    AM1220552 Karting

    May 25, 2012
    132
    Jim,

    Saving a buck here by cutting corners is not the way to go for 3500GT, if you can't afford to do it properly, please do the world a favor, don't do it at all!

    Classic Maserati's should be handled with care and love, there aren't that many 3500GT's left in the world, there were only 2226 of them made back in the days so I am sad to hear that you are considering to butcher yours!

    Rather than spending hundreds if not thousands of hours and throwing money out the window to make the 3500GT worth less, (trust me, it will be worth less!!!) can't you instead sell it to somebody that cares for restoring it properly and spends the right amount of time, original parts and money for bringing her back to life?

    What you are describing can be compared with sending in your sweet old grandma for a full silicone treatment. The Frankenstein looking thingey coming out on the other side after surgery is unwantable for the better part of the rest of the world!

    So my advice to you is sell this rusty tired gem of a car before you destroy it! Just by consideringing doing what you have said, you are showing that you are not a worthy keeper of her. It would be preferable if you buy something else with the money, perhaps something massproduced?..and preferably not handmade by Maserati in the period 1914-1980..


    Brgds

    Kim
     
  5. redfred84

    redfred84 Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    570
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Jim,
    I sent you a PM.
    Thanks, RF.
     
  6. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    Well, I hate to state the obvious, but you might want to consider some actual facts of the situation before lighting into someone.
    It's surprising how information works so much better prior to judgment.

    The car has *already* been butchered, and not by me. Its engine, gearbox, and rear axle were removed and replaced with American items maybe 35 years ago. Two of the chassis members were removed, and one major one was cut. A roll cage was added. The interior was almost completely removed--seats, steering column, the works. It was then replaced with bad taste, then completely ruined. The front bumper and almost all exterior trim was thrown away. It has the wrong size wheels and tires, and the wrong rear track width.

    What *I* am planning to do is to do a complete restoration of the exterior, including the right size wheels and tires, and replacing all chrome and trim to factory look, and of course paint. I've just ordered the Classiche certificate and found the original paint colour. Plus I'm putting in all new interior that will be about 97% to the original design, using vintage Maserati parts for almost everything. I'll remove the roll cage and, to the extent possible, repair the chassis members which have been removed and damaged. The floors will be replaced with the correct locations and dimensions, and so forth. Girling brakes, correct muffler, and so forth.

    As for the drive line, my current baseline plan is to simply fix what's there for now.
    Some future owner could put it back into mechanically original condition, or not. I haven't made things any worse.
    Alternatively, I may splurge and put in a Maserati drive train now.

    The idea is to turn a basket case into a correct car except its engine and gearbox will not yet have been done.
    Which part of this scope of work is the butchering you speak of, or making it worth less?

    Yes, I'm musing on the notion of putting in the wrong displacement of Maserati 6.
    Call me wild and crazy. That's hardly worth an attack.
    This car has been so badly treated that it can never be a "no stories" car, let alone a concours winner, so I can't see fussing *too* much about the stroke length.

    As for my alleged motivation being saving a few bucks, my last car project has cracked the level of 7000 shop hours, and parts in six figures.
    So no, I'm not in this to save a few bucks, nor do I need to.
    But this project will be around 200k without the drive train, and the next 100k for the drive line is up in the air. It's not urgent, either way.

    By the way, there is no apostrophe when you make Maserati plural.
    Also, "mass produced" is two words.
    If you're going to be obsessive about details, you first have to be right about details : )

    Jim
     
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  7. AM1220552

    AM1220552 Karting

    May 25, 2012
    132
    #7 AM1220552, May 16, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Jim,

    Apologize, American is not my mother tounge, I see I came across a bit rough, sorry for that.


    Even though the car was butchered by others before you, does not mean that she's a lost case, IMHO. There are cars restored from worse that win shows and fetch high dollars.

    Concours winner or not, that's just defining the upper range of the price the car might reach at the end of restoration, do you restore her to make profit or to drive her? These things matter and needs to be considered alongside the obvious "I want to have a pretty Italian classic that looks like a million dollars, with a cheap V8 and whatever parts work underneath where nobody sees them."

    Regardless of your intentions, if you intend to restore the outside to "97% original", you can, if you want, stay true to everything else that is possible to restore to original. Alternatives like putting in a Jaguar straight six with a manual box would be more true to this car than to drop in a V8 and perhaps a slushbox while you're at it.

    I believe a Jag mod would be doable without modifying the engine mounts on the chassis, since the modifications can be done on the non Maserati parts and if you or the next owner of the car happens to source a 3500GT engine/gearbox then it would be a piece of cake to get it "100% original - non matching numbers". The car would still fetch a decent price if the restoration was done to perfection in the first place!

    What about that rear axle, it's Salisbury, not unobtainium, the suspension parts are from Alford & Alder and Girling made the brakes, the seat frames are used in other Italian cars, The steering column I am not sure where to look for as I am not a 3500GT owner, but someone here surely knows who made them. It was most likely not Maserati since they sourced a lot of parts. Restoring a handbuilt car like yours is more about the work sourcing the parts than fitting them.

    Think for a minute if you compare your 3500GT to restoring a Ferrari 250 of some sort. Would you stick an amcar engine in her or would would that be sacreligious because it's Ferrari? If you give it 10 years and you see that whatever money you throw at this old girl, you will get it back 10-folds. That is, if you do it correct from the start...

    IMHO it's better to run out of cash with a 3\4 perfectly restored 3500GT that you can admire standing in the garage and waiting some years to finish, than planning from the start that you are going to have a drivable compromise of a 3500GT butchered to make an American V8 fit... it's a Maserati, not a De Tomaso Pantera butchered by Monkey Garage episode.. yiikes!


    I truly hope you come to your senses and understand that you are standing at a junction where you have two routes, you can take. Either rescue her properly or alternatively continue on the path the previous owner had and further destroy a beautiful piece of Italian motor history.

    Why I feel so strongly about this Jim, is because I was in the same situation as you are now, 4-5 years ago. I opted for going all in to rescue something far less valuable than your 3500GT, an 1973 Indy4900. Financially it doesn't make much sense at this point in time, maybe in 10 or 20 years..but I restore her to drive and in my heart I know I saved a Maserati from dying a certain death. To me that's enough to rationalize taking the difficult time-consuming and expensive route.

    Any grammatic errors are unintentional and since I am an old Norwegian fart, I want to mention that it won't help telling me where I should stick the commas or apostropes, I wouldn't understand the underlying irony of your eloquent response I am afraid.


    Kind regards

    Kim
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  8. rentsch1961

    rentsch1961 Karting

    Oct 22, 2012
    83
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Alain RENTSCH
  9. topolino

    topolino Karting

    Jul 21, 2006
    67
    Aachen Germany
    Full Name:
    Hein Brand
    I have a ZF S5-17 gearbox which you can use in your car. Apart from that I have chrome parts from a GTI which was cut years ago. Contact me offline.

    Start this project, I am in the same situation with a Mistral 4000

    Hein Brand
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,370
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I was going to suggest a nice small block Chevy perhaps even an aluminum one if this were about saving money as you could always keep all the original stuff and let some future caretaker have the all the option. I hate that phrase but it's used so often now that cars like this are such hallowed works of art.

    But it's not about money so ... putting in the 4.0L will negatively affect the car's value and status but as long as it's all reversible then it's your car so do what you want. You won't be destroying it if an original motor can still be put back in.

    I'm not sure why you hate V8s so much. But an all aluminum 327 would be awesome in there since it's going to be non original anyway. It's also going to be way easier and cheaper to work with than ANY Maserati engine. I have three Maserati engines to maintain on my cars but not an inline 6. Head gaskets anyone? :D
     
  11. redfred84

    redfred84 Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    570
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Sounds like you are well versed, and very capable of tackling this job. Hopefully you can keep us all up-dated with photos of the cars progress?

    BTW. PM sent.

    Thanks, RF.
     
  12. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    Thanks for all the messages, private and public.
    A lot of very helpful people.

    The plan remains to fully restore the chassis, suspension, exterior, and interior.
    I have found a *very* nice 3500 engine at a fair price, but have not pulled the trigger on that yet.

    Meanwhile, can anyone help me locate an original 3500 rear end?
    Complete unit: Differential, axle, wheel hubs, the works. Limited slip strongly preferred.
    Rebuilt or not, as long as it's complete.
    So far that is the hardest big thing to find.

    I also need seats, if anyone has some which are restorable.

    Thanks
    Jim

    PS
    Just a reminder to all...I did not, and would not, put in an engine of the wrong brand, configuration, or era.
    It was like that when I found it, officer.
     
  13. TBigs

    TBigs Formula Junior

    Mar 23, 2010
    541
    NW Ohio
    Full Name:
    Terry
    What an amazing community! Wonderful to see a better than expected solution coming from this. Good luck with your project, Jim. Please post photos of the transformation!
     
  14. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    169
    Hi Jim
    Good for you.
    A lot of us grew up dreaming about these cars.
    I loved the cars, not the money they were worth.
    Fix that Maserati as best you can. And how you want to, not how they want to.
    It is a piece of art, and a 4L Masr engine looks pretty much like the engine that car came with, but rarer.
    Check out Jaguar rear ends, such as XK 140 or XK150. The Indy rear end I had was virtually identical to a Jag rear except for the track.
    Porsche 914 brake discs are just about the same as Sebring discs, and cost about $49.00.
    XJ6 brake calipers will bolt right on a Sebring.
    Lots of similarities as Maserati used some of the same components as Jaguar.
    Also, the Ford 5 speed from the '90s would be a nice trans and they will never know.
    We used one in an A6G and got a bell housing from Speedway for it.
    Nice set up and so so much nicer than the Masr trans..
    Keep up your dream.
    I love it.
     
  15. awohlmann

    awohlmann Karting

    Jul 6, 2008
    159
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Alfred Wohlmann
    PM sent
    Alfred
     
  16. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    The underlying Salisbury 4HA is based on the same guts, but they aren't compatible, or so I have been told by seeming experts.
    Mounts, splines, several small differences. Close enough that you can get a Jaguar
    shop to do a rebuild, but not close enough to buy a Jaguar rear end and use it.
    Not unless you're willing to take a lot of risk of making things go together.

    But...
    Thanks to the nice folks who saw this thread, I have successfully found a complete correct rear end to put that part back the way it's supposed to be.
    That was the thing worrying me most.

    I have also sourced a pair of original seats, and part way down the list of shiny trim pieces.

    Some things are, of course, hard to locate.
    That middle-of-the-dash cigarette lighter, for example.

    To the disappointment of many, my current plan remains unchanged.
    The existing V8 is not getting replaced with a Maserati 6, just fixed up.
    But suspension, structure, exterior, and interior will be restored.
    Non-original exceptions including adding seatbelts, tastefully hidden air conditioning.
    I'm adding period correct disc brakes, which this specific car did not originally have.

    Jim
     
  17. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    In case you missed this elsewhere: Just A Car Guy: the Ferrari hauler LaFrance
     
  18. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,370
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
  19. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    Just an update in case anybody is interested about my once-abused car.

    The restoration is underway...it is now disassembled and stripped.
    The big news is that I was able to buy a very nicely rebuilt 3500 engine (even the right year)
    and ZF gearbox, so the car is going back to original mechanical spec after all. The V8 is gone.
    So the drive train things will correct.

    It will have a few features not in the original build sheet.
    I'm adding some things that *could* have been on my car but weren't originally--disc brakes all around,
    Borrani wheels, 5 speed version of the ZF, and non-orange carpets.
    And adding some things that would never have been on the car, like seat belts and air conditioning.

    Jim
     
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  20. redfred84

    redfred84 Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    570
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Great news Jim!
    Any chance of keeping us abreast with some photos?
    Many Thanks, RF.
     
  21. Wizz

    Wizz Rookie

    May 24, 2014
    29
    Well, I'm a bit of a privacy freak.
    Also I know anything I do that is not precisely historically correct will generate vitriolic attacks. Life is too short for that.
    (Hey, it was shipped with orange carpets. I rest my case.)

    It's fully disassembled and the body is down to bare metal, work ongoing.

    Very interesting car...the Classiche build sheet is exactly what you'd expect for its year, but the body seems
    to be one of the very early ones from 1958 based on a half dozen anomalies.
    My shop thinks it could even be a late prototype (date code on the window glass seems to be long before the first production car shipped),
    but I suspect it's just an early body that got recycled and renumbered to save money.
    Maybe Touring even billed Maserati twice for the same body!

    For example--
    The body seems to have been built with a lower non-standard nose shape.
    Later it was reshaped with a lot of body filler to get it into the eventual production shape.
    This seems (?) like original period filler, like the thin coat under the original paint.
    This isn't filling a dent, it's a whole different shape, and the metal shape underneath is smooth and continuous.
    Since this reshaping seems (?) to have been done prior to the car being shipped, and perhaps done by Touring, it raises an interesting question as what would be more original.
    The lower shape without filler from when the body was originally shaped, or the standard production shape which I imagine it had when it left Maserati for its first owner?
    It's a pretty big difference in shape, a couple of centimetres thick in places (over half an inch).
    We have removed the filler.

    Jim
     
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