Cheap 308, 328, and Mondials - Are They Worth It?

Dawg,

I hear ya.

It's a strange market. I would pay a premimum for a car that was treated right. The Mondi t that we bought 3 years ago had 20K in repairs just prior to sale. And I still find things that make my hair stand on end. The fixer-upper rarely pays off. But, sometimes they do, hence the allure. I'll take five on power ball!

Dave

 

No sour grapes. You're right!

 

From what I've seen, there has been a big time shift in prices (downward) for Mondials, TRs, etc. in the past 6 months.

So, the semi- sensible "good fixer upper" cheap Ferrari project may only be a recent phenomena.

A year ago, a car like the silver eBay one was still (IMO) around a $20K car. At that price, did it make sense as a project? I don't know. I guess it mostly depends on what a person is looking for. To "fix it up and make money," no way. But to buy it for the then relatively low price of $20K, put $10K in it over the course of the next few years DIY'ing it, and having fun doing it, I guess it wouldn't be the end of the world.

But, in today's crazy market, that car can now probably be bought for $10-12K. That's less than parts car value, IMO. (You could easily and quickly get $10K in parts out of it). At that price range, I think there is limited downside. For $10K, for a complete, driving car like that, you could buy the car sight unseen, get it to your house, start working through it and see what you've got. If it turns out to have major problems, you could get out of it with little or no loss.

The market for a complete, running, reasonable condition Mondial at $10K is relatively large. A lot of people enjoy projects, and at $10-$13K for a Ferrari, that gives a very low point of entry, with a lot of room to drop $10K in parts over the next few years and still come out "ok."

 

If Mondial prices go much lower, it will cost more to do the major service than to buy a driveable vehicle!
This can't be good news for Mondial owners (me) or mechanics. Drive it w/o service until it breaks and then buy another one? I shudder just thinking like that.

 

Agree, disagree, and then a digression.

Agree, it would be extremely difficult to take a 3x8 that is not 100% original, that is missing trim pieces, or is just in overall poor 'concourse' condition and turn it around into a 100% original, 'concourse' type car without breaking the bank. But this is not what everybody is trying to get out of the car. The true financial pitfall comes in when purchasing all the 'restoration' type items.

Disagree, you can very easily take a neglected car mechanically and get it back on the road without breaking the bank if you turn your own wrenches, especially the carbed cars. There are definitely many nuances with these cars, extra steps, more difficult access, and replication on certain items, but other than that it is just like working on any other old school car. Some people don't care that much how well their car looks, but rather how it goes down the road.

Now for the digression.... I have no idea what you are asking for your car, but that being said the market is indeed "crazy" right now. The one thing that can be said for certain is that prices are definitely down substantially from where they were a couple years ago. Also I think that your average buyer of a 3x8 today is more of the type of a first time Ferrari purchaser that is trying to stretch their dollar as far as it goes as opposed to the established Ferrari purchaser looking to buy the best car for the highest dollar.

 

Well, if you're asking if people have done it (i.e., completed it), that would really be addressed to someone who bought a car maybe 2 years ago, and has now successfully completed the DIY project.

That person would have likely paid at least roughly $20K for his Mondial. Maybe a little more.

Using that current silver eBay Mondial, I'd say that was a $20K+ car 2 years ago. It's now a $10-12K car.

The person who bought it 2 years ago for $20K has a tougher economic row to hoe than the guy who buys it for $10K-$12K today. In other words, at $20K purchase it may not be that successful, but at $10K it has a lot more slack to be. That's a good chunk of DIY fix-er-up change.

Anyways, there seem to be some people here having fun with some low purchase price Ferraris. The "350hpmondial" guy, didn't he pick up his car cheap? Seems to be having fun with it, I'd define that as a success.

 

tommott makes a great point, though.

"Success" on a car really depends on what you want/what your goal is.

If your goal is to have a concours or near concours Mondial, mechanically and cosmetically, then a $12K mondial like the silver one is a horrible way to go. Lots of pain to go through, and the cost to replace cosmetically worn parts with new OEM parts would be astronomical.

If, on the other hand, someone wants a convertible Ferrari to bang around in, learn about, work on, disassemble, park pretty much where ever they want, have the challenge of engineering inexpensive workarounds, then the silver one for cheap could very well be "worth it" to him. If you use some common sense, there's simply no way that a complete, functional, driving Mondial cab isn't "worth" $12K. That's just a give away. The market is insane right now.

 

Maybe my story can add.

First to put things in (Finanacial) perspective: I'm from Europe were pricelevels are considderable higher than in the US. And, i'm a DIY mechanic since i drive cars, and I like workiong on a car like this at least as much as driving it.

In september last year i bought a neglegted carbed '78 for <11000 US$. I bought it unseen, from ebay.

It had not driven for 10 year, was put outdoors for 6 year, had a broken engine, had a very rotten interior and was mechanical with one foot in its grave.

But, neglegted in this case also meant ( =pretty important): it was original and complete. And it had no visual damages beside some scratches here and there. and (to my real surprise) hardly any rust! And, it even came with an almost full history, manual and jackset

To sum up:
I spend about us$ 5000 on the engine inkl. complete head job, , new valves, new seals and bearings, complete overhaul of the carbes and rivitalizing all axiliries ( like starter, generator, waterpump)
Did all brakes, suspension, steering. tyres

After that i had the car registred and tested for road worthyness. It came out positive the first time. (a big YESSS)

It drives well. It not a beauty but for me it's fine

With the knowledge that at that time the cheapest carbed 308 GTB in Europe ( autoscout, autotrack, imobilien) was offered for ( no kidding) Euro 34,500 for me the car was a real bargain. And, acting this way made it possible to own it.
Recently i spend antonther US3000 for an updraged ignitiuon (XDI) and a nice set of adjustable shocks.

These cars are a real pleasure to work on, no hidden secrets, hardly any special tools required. If you know cars, you know an 308.
So, are they worth it? I don't know, I'm not buying to sell but to keep, but for me they are most certainly worth avery cent. The next one will probably follow the same route.

 

All depends what you want to do, if you're just looking for no fuss, a turn the key and drive experience, you're probably better off getting something new. But if you don't mind either paying someone to do the work or doing it yourself as therapy, a car with some needs can be enjoyable. Ferrari ownership is something you want to do, never something you have to do. Make sure it makes sense for you.

 

That is what I see in the Porsche world. Most 944s and 928s are not worth the cost of replacing a clutch, so they are driven and dumped because owners won't or can't afford to repair them. More recently some 911s are being parted out because they are worth more in parts than the cost of replacing an engine. Specialty models aside. I offer this as my basic insight to the market, not as a comparison of marquees, as I am humbled just to be a part of this forum.

Thanks for all the great insight.

 

Birddog,

I hope that there are examples. Mine is certainly not. But I'd like to tell a brief story. Please entertain me as a feel compelled to write this....

At this time, less than one year ago, I had never even heard of Ferrarichat, let alone thought that I would be visiting this site practically daily to learn more about the car that I have come to love so much.

I acquired my 87 Mondial 3.2 cab after a unique experience. Last July 4th, my family and I were at my mother's house at the New Jersey shore. Prior to my father's passing a few years eariler, he had always believed in reincarnation, and specifically in the form of a bird. After my mother, my sister, her husband, their kid, and my kids had returned to the house, my brother-in-law said, "Hey, check out mom's car." So we did. On the roof of my mom's car, there was a bird. A black bird of some sort, with a crooked beak (my father had a crooked nose), that was just sitting there on top of my mom's old Buick, and specifically on the roof on top of the passenger seat. (My father in his later years had glaucoma, and did not drive. He always sat shotgun.). That bird would not move. We have multiple pictures of that bird just sitting there for "hours" even with the 10 of us all huddled around this bird. Everyone "knew" that this was dad, and we all knew it, but interpreted what it meant differently. My sister had a mammogram that week for which they were about to do extra views for a density. She interpreted it as everything was going to be OK, and it was.

I interpreted it as my father wants to sit in his seat, and he cannot because it's not a convertible and he wanted me to buy a convertible for my family to enjoy. Over the next few days, I was looking for one, and came across my car, which was located in West Chester, PA, at a place exactly half way between the beach and my home. I saw oher convertibles, an old convertible Ford Galaxy, old Caddies, old Benz's, and newer convertibles, most of which did not have the appeal as the Mondial which I could not stop looking at over my week's vacation. I insist that my wife and I and the kids stop by there on our way home. We saw it, my son honked the horn, and we bought it right then and there, with no significant recent service history known, never having even driven it, as the clutch was being repaired. The car had 25K miles on it. We paid $25,777. At the time, I thought that was a cheap Ferrari with a stich of approximate $80,000.

One week later, we had a friend drive us to the dealer, and my wife and I drove the car home. We immediately put new rubber on the car for $600. I replaced a bonnet switch for $300. This past winter, as recommended by you all, we had the engine out 30K major performed including replacing the clutch, and some rust issues on the bottom of the car addressed. $10,000. I've had two breakdowns this year, one ignition coil replaced for $1500, and one flywheel timing sensor replaced for $1700 after we broke down during the Joe Zaff's 150 mile Miglia in the middle of Lancaster county surrounded by cows, the Amish and farms.

In essence, I've now invested approximately $40,000 to own my car for less than one year!

The car has created just incredible highs for me. It has been so incredibly fun to own. Many of my friends have driving my car, a Ferrari, for the first time in their lives and have loved doing so. My kids and wife ask to take it out for ice cream on nice nights. We took it almost 200 miles each way this past Memorial Day weekend to the Jersey shore and enjoyed every minute in it. I must say that I truly am trying to make it a daily driver. However, the icing on the cake was the Silver medal at Reading Concours this year, something that I absolutely did not expect. I entered the car only to try to learn how I could make it better. But the car is not the point. The day of the Reading Concours was an entire day that I had with my four year old son, the one who convinced me to buy the car in the first place by honking that horn. We had a fantastic time together, he and I and over a hundred other Ferrari's. The Mondial is a lot like me I feel. It may not be considered by some to be the most beautiful, but it has an incredible heart and soul.

For me, the car has been priceless.
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Well, there's this show, "Wheeler Dealers" on HD Theater.
(No Ferrari yet, but they did do an Alfa Spider and a 928 porker.)
There's a classic example of the bondo-and-paint slap it together to turn a quick profit. (I think they lost money on the 928.)
What that show mostly tells me is that, if there's a sucker born every minute, it must be every 30 seconds in Britain.

Correct. I don't know how to compare apples to caviar.

I bought a "beater" 328 back in '99, when the prices were experiencing a bit of a "slump". (The dot-com collapse, and the 360s were coming out.)
It was a drivable car, but with some rough cosmetic and mechanical points.
Without the space or time for a lot of DIY, I paid a shop for an engine-out "make it right" service.

I've bought used Alfas, in the past, and my formula for used Italian cars was a quarter of the purchase price for the first "clean up" service. Given that I bought it at a "beater" discount, that was just about what I spent on a 328, having someone else do the work.

But what would a "good" one have run at the same time? I can't really say, as the only other 328 I saw for sale at the time was a 300 mile garage queen the owner was trying to get the original $78K sticker price for.

A couple of years later, the prices were up across the board, so I could have sold at a profit.

But that's not what the goal was.

Exactamundo.

My 328 is still a bit cosmetically "rough". But it was my summer daily driver for three years. I still commute to work in it frequently.

That was the point. A car that's mechanically "daily driver" sound, but not so concours to keep it from being "daily parker".

The shopping cart guy at the local market once expressed amazement that anyone would park a Ferrari in a supermarket parking lot.

I figured that if I bought a car the previous owner had "fixed up" for sale, it would have been a discount fix. Even a car that had been kept to excellent levels would have little issues the previous owner no longer noticed.

But when I have my own shop make it "right", then I know exactly what I have.

That goes even moreso, for someone with the time and room to do his own work.

(I've done a few minor things on the 328, and I have to say that this car is a dream to work on, compared to other machines I've owned in the past, such as a Fiat 124 or an Alfa GTV-6. Ferrari engineering is "elegant". (Except for the wiring, of course.))

--------

In today's depressed market, if we're talking about something like a Mondial-8, that "quarter the purchase price" is probably a low estimate, since the purchase prices are down so much, compared to the price of parts.

If you're looking to turn a profit, you have to look at the market you plan to sell in. So, if your going to buy a car in this market, fix it up, and drive it for several years, then what's your guess as to what the market will be a few years down the road?

-----
Okay, so that's my rambling story. I'd clean it up, but I have to go ---
--- I'm driving my 328 to the office again.

 

As I always say, there are no cheap Ferraris, it is pay now or pay later.

It is impossible at worst, cost prohibitive at best, to try and turn a "cheap" Ferrari into a concours car. The cosmetic and electrical parts needed to do so are simply no longer available, ESPECIALLY for the Mondial.

As for reliability. Most "Cheap" Ferraris have been either ill maintained or maintained by some fashion of home grown mechanic or other type shop. Invariably, when you get under the hood you will find things jerry-rigged, poor quality repairs etc. This is a technician's worst nightmare as it make diagnosing problems--especially electrical, extremely problematic. It generally costs a fortune to find and undue these "repairs" and bring the car back to spec. I have seen some really bizarre stuff, from dryer hose being used for the intake plenum to improper grade fuel lines, hoses, etc.

People buying a cheap Ferrari are playing at the Ferrari Casino, occasionally you get a good one, but more often than not, you quickly find yourself spending A LOT of money to get your car to 1/2 the condition of the car you would have had if you bought a good car with a full service history from a reputable shop or authorized dealer.

Trust me, I have "counseled" a lot of f-chatters who bought in cheap and are trying to get above water.

Every 22+ year old car that is actually driven is going to have its issues from time to time, my car has been busting my balls with little issues ever since winning platinum last month. However, they are small relatively inexpensive problems to fix. IMHO, it the seriousness and frequency of the issues that separates a higher end better maintained Ferrari from a cheap one.

JUST MY .02

 

Here's my story...

About a year and a half ago I purchased a 1984 Mondial Coupe for $16,200 (sight unseen). I then had it shipped to my house ($900). It was a neglected car and needed serviced, all new hoses, etc. The car has a Tubi exhaust and Speedline wheels, both of which were on my "want list" as I shopped for a car.

For the first year I didn't drive the car as I replaced fuel lines, fixed a rusty spot below the fuel filler, etc. I paid to have the timing belt replaced, although next time I'll do it myself. I purchased new leather (Recaro style) front seats as the driver's side seat was in pretty bad shape. I've kept very detailed records of my work, including all receipts.

So far I'm in the car for a hair over $21,000. It is still far from being perfect, however. It really needs a repaint, as the current paint is heavily oxidized. (Looks good from 3 feet away...)

So, all in all was is "worth" it to purchase my car? Obviously not in today's market. (Especially when one can buy Scaledetail's car for $24k or Birdman's car for $19k.)

But...

I've had a LOT of satisfaction working on the car -- in some ways I feel that I saved the car from being parted out or degenerating into something that couldn't be saved.

Also, much of what I've done (belt service, replace plugs, wires, hoses, etc.) would have been required by any car. Seldom does one find a car for sale in the Mondial world that just had a belt service. All Mondials need their hoses replaced (due to age) if they haven't already been replaced. Once I subtract these expenses, then my ownership cost comes down to around $19k.

So, in summary...

* Financially, did it make sense for me to buy a "cheap" Mondial? At the time, maybe. In today's market, no way.

* Am I glad I bought my car? Yes.

* Do I wish that I had bought Scaledetail's car instead? Yes, but it wasn't available for $24k a year and a half ago. (Can anyone tell that I love his car?)

* Would I recommend someone purchase a "cheap" fixer-upper Mondial for $13k to $15k? Not when Birdman's car is for sale for $19k.

 

Here you go, thought I would help you out!

http://www.ferrarimondialforsale.com/86_Mondial_For_Sale/Home.html

Here are some free thoughts, worth what you paid for them:

Everyone considers a mondial when they are shopping 308's/testarossa's/348's...but few end up with one. I was in that boat 5 years ago. The 308/testarossa are "gotta-have-it-wanted-it-since-highschool-cars." The mondial (which I find attractive), is more of a "hmmm-maybe-I-can-buy-this-instead" car...

At $30,000 plus you are not competing with other mondials...you are competing with 308's, and higher mileage 348's. On a really bad economic day, you might be competing with testarossa's too.

Your car is gorgeous. But, given the choice, most would chose from the other styles. And in this economic climate, you can get a really nice (not perfect) 308 for $30,000 (probably for much less). Or a somewhat used 348... Typically when I think of mondials in this climate, I am really thinking sub 20k$ cars...

Finding a buyer for a pristine mondial is like winning the lottery. The majority of buyers, would take a "driver" of a different model...

Good luck!

 

Another benefit of buying a car that needs some love, is that its almost like buying a car on installments. Lets say you can buy a good 308 for 23,000$, or a "great" 308 for $35,000. Mentally, at least for me, it easier to justify the lower cost and then drive and fiddle with the car as time permits.

On the flipside, the testarossa I bought 5 years ago was just about perfect, and has been trouble free for 5 years... So, folks have choices...

 

Except that you have a better "interest" rate.

 

I purchased my Mondi Cab for 23K, I've put about 4000 miles on it, spent about 3K on parts for a major, hoses for fuel and coolant, etc. No real problems, I've just enjoyed driving it. Tires are still in good shape. By F-car standards the car is rough, but no tears in the leather, dents to the body, etc. It will never be a show car.

I think the market and time will wash out the less valuable cars. Right now the big collectors aren't chasing these cars, only enthusiasts and dreamers. When the value starts upward the good ones will rise to the top. For now they are all hurting. I'm excited I've been able to live the dream for so little.

I don't know your situation, but your car may be a good candidate to sit in a museum for 10 years. It is sad for all of us that your car does not sell. There are many of us watching it sit. Not as painful as it is for you I'm sure.

 

For me one upside of buying a car that needs stuff is you know its been doen and done right. In the end you may put more into a fixer than buying a car that is ready to go, but those cars need stuff too and a person can somtimes end up putting big dollars into a car that "supposedly' ready.

The extra cash and time spent on a fixer IMO can lead to less cost down the road because things are up to date.

 

i bought a 78 GTS from a member here for $9500.00 fixed it, and sold it, to a member here for $22,000, with full disclosure. i have done that a few times, and in the end, i break even, i do not " make tons of money " on the car. its was more important for me to buy one i could take apart back then, and learn on, as opposed to buying a top notch car, and then working on it myself.

now, there are only a few tasks i wont do myself, and i have a terrific 6th sense on what cars need when i look at them.

so yes, there are some of us here who have bought, and to some extent still seek out the cheaper cars. i just drive them to drive them, i dislike car shows and large public gatherings, so i tend to enjoy them alone.

 

They have done a Ferrari as well..They did a GT4 but when you watch the episodes they seemed to leave out alot of things that needed doing..here are the episodes
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wheelers+dealers+ferrari&aq=3

 

So that's the proof! you can buy a cheap Ferrari, spent couple grands fix it (mostly cosmetic) , enjoy it and sell it for a profit. .

I always thought that pay peanut and get a monkey but in Ferrari world, it seems like pay peanut and you get a princess