QV clutch slave cylinder | FerrariChat

QV clutch slave cylinder

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by jeffQV, Feb 21, 2012.

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  1. jeffQV

    jeffQV F1 Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
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    Probably done before but is this from any other car? Mine's leaking and need to replace. Cheers!
     
  2. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
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    I replaced mine with a reasonably priced unit. It was leaking again within 6 months. I took the one that originally came out of the car and sent it to white post restoration to have it sleeved and got a life time warranty. It was what my tech suggested to me as this is a weak point in these cars. I doubt the one that came out of the car originally was the original factory unit, but they restored it for me and about two years later, no issues.
     
  3. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

    May 31, 2011
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    I have an '83 Mondial QV, and the slave started to leak badly. I replaced it with a non-standard part, and now have a tentative recommendation for a clutch slave replacement. I say tentative because I'd like to get some more miles on the car before calling it a success, and reverse gear can be troublesome since the replacement. I strongly believe that there's still some air in the line, which may be the cause of this issue, so I'll fix that next weekend and report further.

    After a bit of research, I selected a Metelli 54-0037 clutch slave cylinder which is specified by Metelli for an '92 Alfa Romeo 164 (2.0 T.S. Eng. AR06416, 105kW), among others. I purchased the part from International Auto Parts, they specify it for a '91-'95 Alfa Romeo 164. International Auto's part number is 05755, the price was $US 32.95.

    The inside diameter is 23.81mm, which is about 0.9374 inch (a shade under 15/16). This bore diameter is larger than the stock part, and will of course make for easier clutch pedal operation; but clutch pedal travel will be greater for a given amount of movement of the clutch fork. As folks have noted in other threads, there is a danger of not having complete clutch disengagement if the pedal travel is insufficient, and having it disengage right at the floor is not acceptable.

    I found many other slave cylinders which resemble the Ferrari part in external dimensions, but most of them have a 1 inch bore diameter. Many of the others which fit Alfa have the 1 inch bore. I haven't seen anything with a smaller bore than the one I got in the same external form factor.

    The part is a perfect mechanical fit, in that it sits perfectly in the Ferrari mounting bracket and mates perfectly with the banjo union used to couple the hydraulic line. When using this part, it is necessary to re-use the rod from the old Ferrari cylinder. It comes with a boot that is very similar to the original Ferrari boot... a big plus. For $33 it's not bad if you just intend to use the boot. Also, at a bare minimum, this will definitely make the car drivable while the original Ferrari part gets refurbished.

    More when I get a chance to bleed the line again.

    Charles
     
  4. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
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    #4 PV Dirk, Mar 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    PV Dirk, no need to send me email of pics if these are it. Thanks man.
     
  6. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    Mike, et. al.:

    I did further testing today and went out for some varied driving. I am absolutely happy with the cylinder I chose to install, mentioned in post 3 of this thread. Clutch pedal operation requires significantly less force, but I must depress it further than before (expected as the slave cylinder diameter is larger than stock). This is quick to re-learn, so that it doesn't require any thought after a little driving.

    The car has 86,000 mi. on it and I don't know how close to wear limits I am on the clutch components, but it is working without issue and seems to have more than sufficient travel. Bottom line: It works, at least in my case.

    Charles
     
  7. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    Jun 20, 2008
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    Thanks for your information Charles.

    I have a strange clutch issue since a few weeks, after installing a braided slave hose instead of the original rubber hose that started to deteriorate after three years...

    When the car is cold, the pressure point is located somewhere at the bottom quarter of the pedal travel. The pedal effort is low and progressive. Perfect.

    When the car is hot, the pressure point is located right at the top of the pedal travel. The pedal is really stiff and not progressive. Tough.

    The clutch works fine in both instances, there are no leaks and the system is bled perfectly.

    Any ideas anyone?
     
  8. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Wade, Apr 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sounds like the braided line is collecting some heat and transferring it to the clutch fluid. I'd check to see if the line is making contact with something hot and re-position it while adding some insulation. After that you may want to replace the fluid.

    http://www.thermotec.com/products/18000-heat-sleeves.html
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  9. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    Wade thanks for your reply. The braided is in the exactly same position as the original; it doesn't touch anything but it is very close the header.
    I think the insulation tube you show is a very good idea; I'll try to get some of that and see if it makes a difference.
     
  10. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #10 soucorp, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Charles, now that you have some drive time with the "Metelli 54-0037 clutch slave cylinder", still works great and have you noticed any kind of leaks ? I might do the same to my car if you think its almost a perfect match. I plan to get my old slave rebuilt by White Post once I remove it. However, I did some research on your lead, interesting that the Alfa part looks the same as the Ferrari part but the horsey is more than 10x the cost, wtfric ?

    thanks,
    Mike
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  11. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    #11 mulo rampante, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
    No leaks from the slave or it's associated plumbing. Still have things like shift shaft seals to contend with :)

    > I might do the same to my car if you think its almost a perfect match. I plan to get my old slave rebuilt by White Post once I remove it.

    I think this is a sound plan. Given my previous caveats about this slave not providing the same range of travel as the stock part, I can't guarantee that it will be perfect, but in my car it works fine. I mention this only because you might have different amounts of wear in your system or tolerances that add up differently. In other words, we presently have one data point.

    > However, I did some research on your lead, interesting that the Alfa part looks the same as the Ferrari part but the horsey is more than 10x the cost, wtfric ?

    Yes. Even more interesting is the fact that the rubber boot I was supplied with seems to more closely look like the Ferrari part than the one in the illustration... really close.

    The only issue here is the difference in cyl. diameter and how that might play out over a wider range of vehicles. I'd say do it, worst case is you'll have to wait for your "real" slave to come back from White Post.

    Getting _all_ of the air out of the system is essential regardless of how you go.

    Charles
     
  12. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #12 soucorp, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
    Agreed, I'm going with this plan. This is an acceptable risk and very low cost for me since I'll be doing it myself and learning a few things along the way!
    I've always been a self taught guy, so love to work on these kind of challenges just to see if I can do it!
    Thanks again.
     
  13. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    btw, what do you recommend for brake/clutch fluid. I believe the manual says to use a Dot4 brake fluid. Most dot4 I see are synthetic, the dot3s are regular. What kind and brand do you guys recommend for best performance and hopefully does not leak from old seals minus(slave cylinder). thanks.
     
  14. adamae82

    adamae82 Karting

    Nov 22, 2011
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    Mike, I just used the regular dot4 when I changed all the brake and clutch fluid as this is what was in the car. I doubt there would be a great significance between synthetic and regular plus I don't want to create an issue with contaminating all component which was already exposed to the regular dot4. So far over 250 miles and no issues.
     
  15. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    #15 mulo rampante, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
    Same here, ordinary DOT4. Was a name brand, don't remember which. My understanding is 3 and 4 can be mixed with no adverse effect, though I did try to purge all of the old fluid in the change.
     
  16. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    The bleed screw looks different on both my original and the replacement when compared to the photos referenced above. I think the black finned thing in the photos might actually be a dust cap. Also, the casting number on the body might be different. But this is of no real consequence. I think the dust boot I got may be identical to the Ferrari one... in any event it is a perfect fit.
     
  17. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    Speaking of Bleeding the slave, what are the correct steps in doing this properly once the clutch slave cylinder has been removed and you have installed the new unit? I have read about reverse bleeding techniques of how bubbles just wants to go up instead of pushing it down and out. Does it really matter? Also, do you need to bleed from the master cylinder as well in the front of the car? Thanks again.
     
  18. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    Old way:

    Have someone sit in the car and step on the clutch pedal. While they hold it down, you open the bleedscrew. This will expel some fluid/air from the bleedscrew. Then, after a few moments when the fluid flow slows, close the screw. Then tell the person to release the clutch pedal, this will draw more fluid from the reservoir into the master. Repeat the process, ad nauseum, slowly forcing fluid down toward the slave and out. You must periodically make sure that the fluid level in the master cylinder doesn't drop to the point that you start sucking air in from that end or you're defeating all of that hard work you just did. Be careful at first if there's no fluid in the master at first... just lightly exercise the pedal until fluid starts to flow. It can be a pain.

    Better way:

    Get a Power Bleeder. It's a big jug with a pump on it and a hose that screws onto the reservoir where the fill cap is normally screwed on. Put some fluid in the thing, try to purge most of the air from the attached hose, screw it on to the reservoir and pump it up to a little pressure (3-5 psi). Open the bleed screw, and pump the clutch pedal slowly while someone observes the fluid emerging from the bleedscrew. When it's free of bubbles and the pedal feels pretty good, close the screw, then depressurize the power bleeder, unscrew it from the reservoir and top off or extract fluid from the reservoir until it's at the full line. The power bleeder slowly forces fluid through the system under pressure, which is better than trying to use the master cylinder as a sort of pump, especially if you have a _lot_ of air in there. Note that you still have to exercise the pedal to speed things along. Be patient if using either method.

    I'm sure there are many other way. This is how I've always done it.
     
  19. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #19 soucorp, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I think I've got this one, at least I know what and how I'm going to attack this job when I get to installing my new slave cylinder unit after it arrives next week. I think that power bleeder is cool, got to pick up one of those for my garage.

    Thanks.
    -Mike
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  20. adamae82

    adamae82 Karting

    Nov 22, 2011
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    I did it the old fashion way but somehow different.
    I have somebody sit in the car and ask the person to pump the pedal approximately 7-10 times, and then firmly depressing on the pedal, I would then open the bleeder screw and let the air out. It is important to instruct the person inside the car not to let go of the pedal until the bleeder screw is tight again. You have to do this cycle until there is no more air coming out when the bleeder screw is opened and you can see solid flow of fluid. (No bubbles). You could also feel the presence of pressure when depressing the pedal. Same procedure for both clutch and brake bleeding.
    The bleeder pump is good and less messy.
    Constant checking of the fluid in the reservoir is mandatory while in the bleeding process.
    Hope this help.
     
  21. perpetualapprentice

    Apr 6, 2012
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  22. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #22 soucorp, Apr 7, 2012
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    Hi Charles,
    Today I received my clutch slave cylinder, does this look more like what you installed on your car? It does look slightly different from the advertised part picture.
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  23. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    #23 mulo rampante, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
    Mike:

    Looks exactly like what I got. You will need to replace the rod with the one from the Ferrari cylinder, it is easy... just remove the wire spring holding the big end of the boot, the small end is then easily slid off the rod. Assembly is the reverse, though I think I used a tie-wrap in place of the wire spring... can't remember. Note that there's a spring behind the piston in the bore, no need to remove the piston, so try to keep that part of the new cylinder together (just thinking that one could potentially damage the seals if the piston comes out and needs to be reinserted -- this is probably obsessiveness on my part).

    The job itself is straightforward. Don't attempt to remove the old cylinder from the block that retains it while its still in the car though. Once you've removed the hydraulic line, the cotter pin and the bolt that holds the rod to the lever arm, and the two nuts holding the retaining block, the cylinder and the block can be removed as an assembly. Then you can swap the new cylinder for the old one. There's an external circlip (aka snap ring) that retains the cylinder. Note also that your replacement cotter pin that holds the bolt on the end of the rod can be a pain to get into place once you've got the cylinder in position in the car, it caused me to say many bad words. It's tight in there, just take your time.

    The job is very straightforward and one of the easier things you can do though.

    Once you've bled the system, note that you will have a longer clutch pedal travel to disengage the clutch... didn't measure before and after, but it does require more. As I noted before, my car is entirely drivable with the new slave, though I had a little relearning as I'm the sort who just uses the minimum possible amount of clutch disengagement.

    Also, while you're in there, it might be a good datapoint to have someone depress the clutch pedal fully with the old cylinder while you measure the travel of the lever arm and then make the same measurement with the new one. This is something I meant to do but forgot. It would be good to quantify the difference.

    Good luck with it, ping me if you need help.

    Charles
     
  24. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

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    I've heard of people doing it that way, never saw it though. I have to admit he makes a good point with regard to the air "wanting" to rise, and thus he forces fluid in from the bottom. If you don't have a power bleeder, this makes a lot of sense.
     
  25. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    Thanks again Charles for your guidance. I will try your steps when I get to the removal of the unit. -Mike
     

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