I was in the book store today and took some snaps of the Dec 2012 issue of Forza on affordable Ferrari V8s. Good write-up on (308 GT4 308, Mondial, 328) which are practical great fun to drive and budget friendly. With these great cars, you don't have to be a millionaire to own a Ferrari was the point of the article. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Forza is -still- running that article? They publish it every 6 months or so. Recycling I suppose . . .
one of the reasons I stopped reading Forza....same "buyer's guides" over and over with updated prices culled from ebay and cars.com
Looks like the engine out service is deteriorating the t values over time despite its technical advantages, while the 3.2 has ownership costs and reliability more like any other luxury classic car. Values are really just holding, and there is still very thin market for these wonderful cars. Over time, mint ones will fetch a decent price, while anything less than perfect will have no bid. This is what has happened to classic cars generally, probably reflecting less mechanical interest and ability in more recent age groups. I suspect the whole classic car industry is at the beginning of a systemic decline, so even high dollar cars will be poor investments over the longer term. Leading one to just enjoy the cars without regard to cost and perceived value to others!
Of course such a maintenance requirement depresses values. Then again, F40s are notorious for being very expensive to maintain, but look at what they go for. Ok, different league and all, I know. Here I disagree, this is more complicated. There are purists and people who also want to enjoy/drive their cars, and plenty of people who just want to say they have or had a certain car. Price differences between reasonable and perfect condition do depend highly on the effort and spend required to turn a reasonable example into a very good one. That also means that you will see significant price differences for what on paper seem like similar cars. This mechanism can confuser both sellers and buyers on occasion. This could be true, although I wonder where your idea of less mechanical interest comes from - the percentage of young people actively involved in 'special' mechanical things to the point of actual ownership has always been maxed at around 10% or so, objectively looking at people I know. In the past it just seemed more people than that were interested, because those were the ones I hung out with more . If there is one thing worth to mention, it would be that younger people seem less inclined to ownership of anything in general? Again, this is more complex than it seems. Despite the crisis, purchasing power throughout the world is rather stable, and interest in classics in one spot can grow while it wanes elsewhere. This is also highly dependent on which decade you are speaking of, both on supply and demand side. The '80s did not produce many cars that are considered collectable, but there are plenty of people with the right mix of money and fond memories for the era so the cars that are collectable have strong demand for them.
Good points above, however let me just say that a good example of anything mechanical will always be sought after and only grow as a collectible especially in rare quantities. This can be said from watches, to bikes, trains, planes, and automobiles. The market is also cyclical as the decades passes, these cars seem to stabilize and eventually up trend in value. Take a look at the early 1970 911s, as Porsche reaches 50th anniversary in 2013, its been driving up prices everywhere. The genius behind Porsche is that they kept the model 911 the same thru the years where as Ferrari has had so many models since. Never the less, I'm predicting a market up swing for well maintained and kept Mondials/308s as well. These cars are rare on the roads, so just maintain and hold it a few more years as the economy bounces back and you get more younger enthusiast that are now able to own a piece of motoring history. Besides, what other car will give you such a rewarding satisfaction of ownership that says you own a Ferrari. Folks, if you are a car person, these cars are truly the best kept secret out there as far as value! Cheers
I think when a range is given most of the population of the cars should sell in that range. I've seen a number of 3.2 cabs sell at a significant discount. Including mine when I purchased it. I think the ranges are optimistic. I haven't been tracking but feel the 3.2s have dropped a bit on average over the last three years. Likely due to ongoing economy issues. I think the 3.2 range should probably be 20 to 40. I feel like mine is worth 40 in my head and by seat of the pants. I think the market would value my car at about 20 if i had to sell it. I see 27K pop up as an asking price and that is where I put mine when I decided to list it for a couple days. I don't think there is much interest even at that level. Having said that I think 40 is possible for a few of the most exceptional and known cars around. And I'm going to reprint a past comment of mine. "I'm not entirely sure I want these cars to go up in value. At a certain price point I would not be able to justify keeping my car. I'd have to sell to pursue other goals." Although when I read the range above to my wife she said "Ohhhhh" and it makes the car sitting in the garage not look so bad if it's going up.
PV, I think you are on the money in your market analysis of the Mondials. Its a no brainer that prices has dropped in recent years due to the global economic crisis. These cars are not daily drivers, they are a luxury weekend cruising cool factor car for those people with the disposable income to do so. In the current economy with so much uncertainty, do you really think these buyers are looking to buy Mondials??? The answer is NO! But I am optimistic and do think the prices will bounce back!
Market is going nowhere for a while. The only appreciation these cars will see is due to inflation. Watched a silver QV coupe fail to go above $14k on one of Speed's auction coverage yesterday. Too many other good sports cars available at this price point now.
My only concern, and I'll try to keep this out of P&R, is my real belief that our current government is going to try to outlaw the combustion engine by restricting tags and titles. Starting with the oldest first. This would have a severe effect on collector cars and exotics and we may never see these values come back, if you can't drive them, what's the point of ownership. Short of this, buy low, enjoy, sell high before the law evolves into green only. I have a few vintage cars, I'm going to watch 2013 to see where it's going, I may hold or fold before the bottom drops. Valenzo would be hard to let go. She's almost perfect.
Valenzo, that won't happen that quickly - the installed base is too big, alternatives too few, and too many influential rich people keep them as a hobby. Maybe in one or two decades there may be limitations on them. Yet looking at Europe, especially the older cars are often exempt from ruling on safety and environment.
I think technology is the key to keeping the combustion engine alive. The US gov will grandfather old cars in (exempted) from new restrictions as we have seen thru the years. The manufactures will have to meet stricter air pollution requirements and offer better gas mileage. But interesting enough, I had a spirited debate with a chief VW mechanic on the future of cars and in particular, electric/battery operated cars. He said, we have the technology to make a reliable battery operated vehicle but there is no big push to do so. Why? It would kill all of the jobs in petroleum, gas stations, mechanics, etc that support the current auto industry. So the auto manufactures play along and throw a bone out so we get ugly things like the Prius -packed with technology but seriously missing the passion for anything. Its a computer on wheels with no soul. Just a thought.
And you are all correct, this, IMO, is a long term plan and i believe it will be accomplished under the you have to pay to play approach. Its happening in CA as we speak. But enough of the political theorizing. I still think its years away so in the meantime lets continue to enjoy our sexy dinosaurs while we have them (i signed up for the all electric Smart) and as promised by our newly elected officials, our economy will improve in 2013 and therefore so should the resale values on the Mondial, for those who wish to sell. For me, im holding long term.
I considered this when buying my 3.2. However, I think unless you are a hardcore DIYer (and even if you are, see the T restoration thread from England), at some point SOON these cars will require MAJOR effort and $$$ infusions to be made right. They are 20-30 yrs old at this point, with many systems needing complete rebuild/refurbishment. At some point, either you go all in or sell the car before it falls apart. Not sure that the cost of mechanical restoration will be wildly different between the two - in either case it will be a major investment of time and money. Having said that, once you make up your mind which to get and what strategy to pursue, there are no losers in this game. ANY of these cars will provide instantaneous reversal of your seasonal affective disorder!! Best, H
the 456 wheels fit on mondial 3.2 abs ? 1988 and iis true the story of '' fragility '' of the 456 wheels ?
Hi Mike, looks like a great write up, i cant find that magazine here in the UK, but would be great to see the write up on the Mondials. I reckon any coverage or write-up in the media increases public awareness and interest and especially as they are still relatively affordable it can create the demand to help the steady increase in prices. The values have bottomed out to the point that its a great time to buy without fear of residual values falling any more. Buy a good one and enjoy! Peter
Totally agree. Totally disagree about the daily driver comment. These cars are the same prices as Honda Accords right now. The 328 engine itself has a reputation of being quite bulletproof. Now the surrounding components like waterpump, tensioner bearings/cam belts, ignition modules, extenders, etc do have a reputation to wear out first, but if you stay on top of it, there's no reason the Mondial could not be a daily driver. Ask me. I drove it to work two weeks in a row this year. I'm up to 43K miles since my purchase in 2009. No garage queen for sure. Very true Howard. My Mondi just got some pampering at Algar. Was not cheap at all. However, she was very grateful for the time at the spa! And she rewarded me with a really great drive home last night from Philly. She ran perfectly.
Hey Jay, let me qualify my statement, define "Daily Driver"? I don't mean you can drive these cars straight for 2 weeks to work, I've done that all summer long. What I mean is using this vehicle year round, all seasons and all weather. I consider my Jeep a Daily driver as I don't need to worry about it much, just start it up and go. You really can't treat the Mondial the same way. Before I take the car to work, I find myself calculating the weather, if I'm taking friends out to lunch, if that day will have more traffic than others, etc. Its only November and most have already winterized/stored their cars already. This is what I meant by not being a daily driver, not practical, but sure you can do it. Also, driving a Honda and driving a Mondial are two different things even though the price of the car maybe the same, its alot more expensive for the Ferrari as you know. The maintenance cost can cost as much as buying another Honda, LoL, the biggest reason these cars are not used as daily drivers in my opinion. cheers!
This is encouraging. 39k for an average condition T. I hope he gets it. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=11284
Ferrari Pricing Heads For Orbit, Porsche Stays Grounded | The Truth About Cars By Jack Baruth on October 16, 2012 Ferraris are expensive, Porsches (usually) less so. This is something that every kid on the street knows, right? Turns out that it is, as the song says, truer than true. This week, Good Car Bad Car‘s market master Timothy Cain looks at Ferrari pricing and finds that the Italians have been raising the prices of their core vehicles at a pace well beyond the inflation rate. The Ferrari F355 was priced at $121,495 in 1998. Who knows what Ferrari clients actually paid once they optioned their cars, but that’s the USD price as Cars.com quotes it. Expecting the price of the F355′s great-grandson to simply be $121,495 plus inflation proves to be silly. Inflation only takes the total up to $171,717. In fact, the 458 Italia costs $229,825, an 89.2% jump from the F355′s price; a 33.8% jump above inflation. What about the competition, real and imagined? Adjusted for inflation, the 1998 Mustang GT’s price would be $28,479 in 2012 dollars, just under the $29,710 Ford actually charges… Adjusted for inflation, the 1998 Mazda MX-5 Miata would cost $27,030 in 2012 dollars. The MY2012 MX-5 Miata only costs $23,470… The gorgeous old school 1998 911, with its comparatively anemic 282-horsepower engine and atrocious 14-mpg city fuel economy, would cost $90,102 in 2012. The current 911 Carrera is priced from $82,100. I don’t know about that 14-mpg part; my 993 returns 24-26mpg in mixed use. And as every TTAC reader knows, I’m not sure the new Porsches have anything like the long-term desirability of the old ones. Ferrari, on the other hand… it’s easy to see how each new Ferrari from the 355 forward has been a major improvement on its predecessor, and such luminaries as Sports Car Market‘s Michael Sheehan have pronounced the 360 and 430 to be solid vehicles with lower servicing costs than their predecessors. The 458 may be even better. Ferrari’s price strategy also respects what the market wants. As Mr. Cain points out in the article, the price of the four-seat F12berlinetta is actually lower than that of the 456GT, its Palezoic predecessor. There just isn’t much of a market any more for the patrician Ferrari, and while your humble author finds the 456 to be timeless and entirely tasteful, the real buyers of these cars want the most outrageous two-seater possible. Load the passenger seat with two Estonian prostitutes and ski the mountain of coke in your suite at Wynn! The American dream! It’s also instructive to consider the fact that, although the 993 and F355 weren’t that far apart performance-wise in 1995, today’s base 991 Carrera and 458 Italia aren’t even in the same zip code. The 458 plays hardball with the GT3RS and the GT2. It’s a genuine monster of a car around a track or in a straight line. Add that to the brand’s resale value, which remains excellent, and it’s hard to see the current Ferrari lineup as anything but a bunch of fairly-priced automobiles of known quality. The problem becomes this: although the pricing is justified, it does draw the velvet rope in front of most potential buyers for the cars. It doesn’t really matter; as Mr. Cain points out, the one-percenters are just getting wealthier every day and Ferrari sales rise as prices do. Those of us who want to join the Scuderia at a modest rate will have to follow the lead of fictional characters or the aggressively self-made, and buy used. The good old days growing up, this is what started it all for me. btw, Philip Michael Thomas (Tubbs) graduated from my high school in CA. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMfbMoJnY5g[/ame]
It looks so amazing in white and was my favourite series back in the 80s. I have every episode on DVD now, what dream! But the directors artistic licence does spoil it somewhat, I mean how is it that the bad guys in the tank chasing them are able to keep up with it at a consistent distance behind? Great filming though
Was just checking some Ferrari prices on eBay. Seems like Mondials are holding strong compared to other 80s icons 308, 328, Testarossa. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
This guy obviously isn't paying attention. I've been looking for a 964 or 993 C4 coupe for the last several months. I really regret selling my 911SC and have been trying to replace it. I can't find much out there, and everything that's available is a good 20-30% more expensive than it was two years ago. Good condition 993 coupes are appreciating the fastest-you can't find anything for less than $30k, whereas $20-$25k used to be the norm even a year ago. 911SC's, which used to be readily available for $10k simply aren't available any more unless you wanna settle for a cab or targa (less desirable than coupes) and even then they're hard to find. Heck, even 944's are seeing prices rise (if you've never driven a good condition 944 you owe it to yourself to try one, as they're amazingly balanced). I think we're about to see a sharp appreciation across all collectibles, as many investors have been moving into hard assets as safe haven holdings. Hold on for the ride, but prepare yourself for the eventual bubble that follows.
