Ferrari life is good if you like to keep on wrenching Yesterday my battery light stayed on indicating that it was not charging anymore. So let's take out the altenator and see what we have. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RBzNHP3c7M]Taking out the altenator of a Ferrari Mondial - YouTube[/ame]
OK so the alternator seems to be in good condition after testing it. Does anyone know where the alternator relay is located on a '87 - 3.2? I cannot find it anywhere. I read here some info where it could be located, but this seems not to be correct for the 3.2. http://www.amcarparts.co.uk/ferrari/Mondial/alternatorrelay-LowPrice The alternator relay is located on the mud shield behind the left front wheel, in front of the battery.There are multiple relays located there such as horn relay, alternator relay, and A/C relay.The purpose of the alternator relay is to energize the field windings of the alternator when the ignition is switched on, and to disconnect the field windings from the battery when the ignition is off.
Ok I am as far that this is an unfused area without any relays. Other question does someone have a colored electrical schema of the charging sytem. (or whole electrical schema) I am not very fond on doing electrical things and only black lines isn't helping aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh. Alternator is working.. Tested today and making 75 Amps, however battery is not charging. Thanks in advance, Tijn
afaik, the alternator has no fuse or relay, just an idiot light that comes on when it detects a fault. How old is the battery and is it still good and hold its charge? 87 wiring diagram here: http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Downloads/The%20Documents/Wiring%20Diagrams%20Mondial%2032%201987.pdf CHEERS
Hi Mike, thx! I will color it myself The battery is just 2 weeks old. As a sanity check I put the battery of our Volvo V50 in and the situation stays the same. It should give 14v when charging with a running engine, but it stays at 12v. It must be a loose or broken connection somewhere. I see in Fig. 1 that the wire of the warning light is passing the "motor check control". I have been in there to replace my front silent block... anyway I will start to work my way down beginning at the alternator and I hope for sure I will not end up in my Electrical Board. This will be evening work.. 6 weeks before our Italy trip and this was not on my to do list! Aaaaaaaaaarghhh! Let's see what we will find with the multimeter.
Ok does not sound like its the battery, 2 things come to mind but Im sure you already checked, tight belt and a good ground wire to the alternator. Besides that, start tracing upstream/downstream components from alternator. Best
The alternator circuit is simple. There is no relay nor fuse in the charging circuit, and the regulator is integrated into the alternator. If the system tension is below a threshold, the alternator charges. When the voltage goes above a certain limit, the alternator stops charging. It's passive/reactive. If you are positive the alternator works (did you check with an Ammeter?) and battery is sound: There is a ground - the alternator is attached to the engine, and there is a ground strap from the engine to the chassis. Check. The alternator's positive terminal goes to the starter motor's positive terminal, where it connects to the large section cable that links the starter motor to the battery, effectively borrowing that cable when it is not used for starting. Check that connection at the starter motor. That large section cable running forward also a connector somewhere along the line. Check. On the battery side, it simply connects to the positive terminal. Make sure the negative going through the switch is working. The alternator warning light in the IP centre stack is simply lighting up when there is a negative tension difference between the output of the alternator and the system tension (±battery tension) - as far as I understand. It has no influence on the charging system as such. Good luck Urs
I believe it does provide battery current to the alternator's field coil when starting, so that a magnetic field is produced. Once the alternator is rotating, it becomes self-sustaining and is able to maintain the magnetic field by itself. But it needs some initial current from the battery to first produce a magnetic field, and this current flows through the lamp.
Thank you, Charles, for the correction and explanation. Would this mean no alternator in case the lamp fails?
Probably. Unlike a permanent magnet generator, there is no magnetic field present. It is possible that some of the ferrous parts of the alternator might have some residual magnetization, and this might be enough for it to start producing power, but I wouldn't rely on that. Note that once it's running and self-sustaining, the current from the lamp is no longer needed.
+1, I think I verified this event Charles when I was testing my cambelts. The alternator belt was off, water pump belt off, just new cam belts on, started the car, I noticed the charge light was lit on dash but car started and ran fine. I shut off the engine after a minute but was so happy the belts and timing were spot on! I put the alternator and water pump belts back on, filled and bled the coolant and started the car, charge light went out and car ran fine. Cheers
No, you didn't verify Charles' statement ;-) Of course the Alt warning light must come on when the belt is off - it doesn't charge! Of course the car starts as it starts off the battery in any case; it doesn't matter for starting whether your alternator works or not. Of course she runs fine - for a while at least - as long as your battery delivers enough power to the fuel pump and ignition. However, looking at the schematics of the alternator and regulator, Charles has a point My other car doesn't have an alternator lamp, so I wrongly concluded that it was a warning light only. But of course you can short out the lamp and get the function with a straight wire. Curious to know what the charging problem on the OP's car is.
guys! thank you for all the replies! most appreciated! Ok, so where we at at the moment. (correct me if I am wrong somewhere) Fact: No voltage on wire "Cu 1 GV" of the alternator when starting the engine or when engine is running. This means the alternator is not getting a signal to charge. So I followed the wire "Yellow/Green" to the first connector at the starter motor --> no voltage either when starting or with running engine. Follow the wire going up on the bell housing and you will get a split (blue X) there the yellow/green wire is split into "Grey" and "Green/Black" (This is near the oil filter) where a branch goes to a diagnostic plug. Here I get lost... I know for sure the "Yellow/Green" wire coming from the alternator is split to a "Grey" and "Green/Black". Measured with a multimeter to detect if there is no break in the wire and these to make get appointed to make sound. So at these two wires: Ignition stand I or II there -->no voltage on either of the two wires (Red arrows) When the enginer is running the "grey" gives 12volt (Green arrows) However the "Green/Black" wire give no voltage (yellow arrows) and the 12 volt from the "grey" wire is not passed on to the "yellow/green" at the split (blue X) although they are connected. Question 1: Does the "Green/Black" wire need need to have current flowing as well when starting or running? Question 2. Why does the "Yellow/Green" wire of the alternator get split into two wires? it's not in the drawing and it is a genuine wire tree. The connector that you see is the C3 connector in the engine bay between the header tank and the cigarette lighter. Ps. My 3.2 QV of '87 has a "motor check control" sor the "Wiring Diagrams Mondial QV Euro Version.pdf" applies. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
How are you measuring the output voltage of the alternator? May I suggest measuring it directly at the output lug at the alternator and the body of the alternator. It should be over 13.5 V with the engine running. Then measure between the output lug on the alternator and chassis ground. Anywhere on the chassis. The mounting of the alternator has an insulating bushing on one bolt and the actual grounding is on the bracket. Maybe it is corroded if the alternator is outputting 13.5V?
Hi Richard, I did not measure the output of the alternator as this is working. Almost 14 volt on the test bench producing 75 amps. I don't get these readings on the battery side when the engine is running. It stays at 12 volt. So no charging is happening. I started at the alternator and came to the conclusion that the alternator does not get the signal to start charging in my case and I am a bit lost at connector C3 of the things happening. To answer the below:
Something is not right here. Grounding: the alternator's body is the ground. The large bolt where the body pivots is on an insulating bushing. So, ground does not happen there. The actual grounding is done via the adjustment bracket and the two bolts at both ends. If one is corroded there will be no continuity. With the engine running: do you get 13.5v between the alternator and the alternator body? If yes, then measure between the alternator output and the engine itself. If you have 12v then there is a grounding issue on the alternator to the engine If you get 13.5 v between the alternator output and the engine ground, then check the cable between the alternator output and the starter. You will have to jack up the car and see it from underneath. The cable to the battery is fine as you can start the car. I suspect that The issue is in the area of the alternator, grounding of he body of the alternator to the engine or the cable between the alternator and the starter
??? No, it shouldn't, according to my diagram. It should go, via connector 3 (left side of engine bay) to position 1 of the white plug of the check control display, and then onward to the alt light on the IP centre stack. The other side of that light is connected to Pos I (#15) of the ignition key = 12V battery power when key in the first position.
It would really be great if there was a colored scheme for the I'll begin to check from the check control display to see where I will get.
Urs, you are correct. I think these wires are not the correct ones.. but I do not understand why the multimeter gives a sound detecting for breaks when I put it on bot ends. Anyway, we can ignore it since I measured first from the "Monitor Check Control" till the end of the alternator and there seems no break. also from the "Check Control" all the way to the battery light there is no break. Then from the battery light all the way to the alternator.. it all gives a nice good sound. One thing.. I do not get voltage on position 1 of the white plug of the "Monitor Check Control" when key in first position of the ignition. So either the wire on the ignition is failing or before still I guess. "Tomorrow another day"
Well I wish I could offer some help here too but electrics is just not my thing at all. Most of the time I can fix a problem but I just can't offer advice on electrical matters as it is a subject that I can only scrape by on, sorry. All the best, Bell.
I think this is the case for Mondials - it is for 308s. If the small alternator light in the gauge (think it is in the gas gauge) is burned out it will not send a signal for the alternator to energize the battery. Crazy but this isi how the circutry is set up. If you do not see a light, assumming it is set up this way, replace the bulb and you should be good to go. Little known fact but correct. Regards, Drew Altemara
Thanks Drew! I have a light and it's burning I am not very fond on electrics myself as well Bell! I like patching up things more. You will see more progress compared to electrical stuff and I am not good in it either. I am just putting my hands in the dash with my mechanical knowledge and hope for the best haha However I do like colors and not the bl***dy grayschale wiring PDFs.. It just horrible putting your hands under the dash not knowing where you dig into unless one likes grab bags Work in progress... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nve3cWHDL2I]Wire Check Alternator - YouTube[/ame] signing off for today. zzzzzzuh zip..
