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More Starter Info

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Rapalyea, Apr 13, 2014.

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  1. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
    1,511
    Georgia Mountains US
    Full Name:
    David Rapalyea alias
    #1 Rapalyea, Apr 13, 2014
    Our starters are vulnerable to both heat and indifferent wiring. So along with a new clutch last Fall I had a new NAPA starter installed and was lulled into complacency. It worked every time until today when it became recalcitrant when cold. But it did engage and start after several tries and then again successful/not successful in the carport before driving off. So I decided to experiment.

    The experiment include two phases. The first was to turn the engine off as I drove down my little mountain and try a restart [easy to pop-start while coasting if it failed]. It never failed to engage and start. The second phase was hot soak. I stopped at a fast food place on a hill and let it sit for about 15 minutes. Repeatedly it engaged and started.

    Then I let it heat soak in my carport twice. The first time for one hour and it never failed to repeatedly engage. Second was to do the same test after another hour. Again it never failed to engage. Then just a few moments ago after cool down. So I have a conclusion on my car, at least.

    It really really wants full voltage from the battery. Why do I conclude this? Specifically the battery is old and sat un-charged for several days before I did all this. After only a few minutes of charging it never failed even after hot soaks on a warm day (80F). I will replace the battery with the biggest baddest that will fit.

    In addition I am considering a relay installation. Clearly the voltage sensitivity seems very narrow. Once the starter engaged there was plenty of cranking power available even with an old battery. So solenoid activation is the weak link and seems voltage sensitive. There is plenty of voltage to activate a 6-24 volt solenoid. And plenty of amperage even from an old battery to crank the engine once it DOES activate.

    So I have decided to replace the battery. THEN will decide whether to install a simple solenoid. I report this stuff simply to add to the discussion. I am at least as flustered by this silly problem as anyone else!.
     
  2. srephwed

    srephwed F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2012
    6,470
    street,md
    Full Name:
    fred brown
    #2 srephwed, Apr 13, 2014
    Don't laugh but if you go to your local john deere dealer and ask for a starter relay kit for a 318 lawn mower it is almost plug and play.I had to drill one eyelet out.The solenoid of any starter requires a significant amperage to operate.If not you get a click.Also if you look on e-bay there is a company that makes the mounting plate to fit the mondial on a brand new gear drive starter,very reasonably priced I thought.as with anything electrical the size of wire and condition of connection are very important.your battery is in the front so current must travel the length of the car and go through switches and connectors.All create voltage drops.hope this helps and good luck
     
  3. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    3,203
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    #3 jgoodman, Apr 13, 2014
    Great McGyver work there!

    FYI, if you do ultimately need a starter, I have a new one in the box.
     
  4. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
    1,511
    Georgia Mountains US
    Full Name:
    David Rapalyea alias
    #4 Rapalyea, Apr 14, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
    John Deer - New Starter etc

    One of the irritating things about this is the starter is new and only in the car about a month. But there is a John Deer dealer 15 minutes away and I will make a visit forthwith. However, in my case there is a secondary candidate for culprit. Last fall while making a fool out of myself changing clutch hydraulics the battery went dead after about a week. So I have taken to turning it off if it is going to sit for long since there seems to be a drain on it.

    I never bothered to track the voltage leak. The same thing happened on my Z-28 and it drove me batty. Finally I gave up and took the car to the dealer. The underhood light was not going out with the hood down! Did you ever wonder if your refrigerator light alway goes out.

    Anyway, until I can around to these things I will simply turn the battery switch off when I park it. Very practical feature. But it just goes to show how marginal the wiring is. That battery had only been drawing down for two days and only a few minutes driving was enough to bring it back.
     
  5. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
    Full Name:
    Steve W.
    #5 FasterIsBetter, Apr 14, 2014
    IIRC, the Mondial 8, QV, and 3.2 all have the same starters as the 308, 308 QV and 328. Rather than install a NAPA or other non-Bosch starter, there are two good alternatives. First, have your original Bosch starter rebuilt, including the brushes, solinoids, etc. These are stock items and easy to have rebuilt. A rebuilt starter will work better than an old one.

    The other alternative is to get a high torque starter. These are available from a number of sources. You will find them on Ebay even. They are built by Gustafson Engineering in Massachusetts, and are fitted with an adapter to mount to the 308/328/mondial bell housing. Not only do they work on less current draw, they turn the engine over much better than the old starter. If you can't find a supplier for the starters, Google Gustafson, and he has a list of authorized dealers on his website. (NAYYY, just a happy customer.)

    As far as voltage goes, one weak link in the Mondial wiring is the cut-off switch near the battery. I had an '84 Mondial QV, and was having lots of starter problems. I was cleaning up all the grounds, and discovered that the cut-off switch was badly corroded. It was amazing the car ran at all. I by-passed the cut-off and ran the negative lead from the battery directly to the chassis. No more starter problems, and it cleared up a bunch of other electrical problems as well. Also, make sure you have a good ground strap running from the engine to the chassis as well.
     
  6. bbekker

    bbekker Karting

    Jan 16, 2010
    64
    Mexico
    Full Name:
    Bas
    #6 bbekker, Apr 14, 2014
  7. Dizengoff

    Dizengoff Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2011
    625
    Chicago
    #7 Dizengoff, Apr 14, 2014
    FWIW I've got one of the Nippo Hytorq starters on my Mondial and I STILL have a weird no-start from time to time. I've had the starter and battery both tested and they're good, which leaves me to suspect it's the starter switch. All my electrical wiring is new (2010-ish I think).
     
  8. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
    Full Name:
    Steve W.
    #8 FasterIsBetter, Apr 15, 2014
    Yes, that one on Ebay is the Gustafson starter, or looks just like it. He doesn't advertise the 308 on his website, but it is available. He doesn't sell direct, only through dealers.

    As for the hot starting problem, that is exactly the problem that I had. The car would start fine cold, but when it got really hot, like after a long drive, it wouldn't start again until it cooled down. Check that cut-off switch up front. It is right behind the radiator, so it gets very hot while driving. Heat increases resistance, which drops voltage, thus no start. As soon as I ran a new negative ground cable from the battery directly to the chassis, and put an extra ground strap from the engine to the chassis in the rear, the starting problems went away. YMMV, but that worked on my '84 Mondial QV.
     
  9. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    #9 andyww, Apr 15, 2014
    Intermittent "click" but no start is a wiring issue, a high resistance in the path between battery-ignition switch-solenoid. Its highly unlikely to be the starter itself.

    If the starter does crank properly when it does actually fire, you can rule out battery, ground, engine ground strap and main power cable from battery to starter/alternator as the cause. These all must be good if the 100 amp motor current can get through them.
     

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