84 QV rear misfire continues | FerrariChat

84 QV rear misfire continues

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by bigeasy, Aug 20, 2014.

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  1. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Put the repair on the back burner for a while, but back at trying to discover the cause of my rear bank misfire. I replaced the distributor cap and carbon pin, put on new OE wire set and extensions, (really thought this would be the cause) check grounding locations at the Digi-Plex and coils all were cleaned and reattached, replaced plugs.

    I just tried swapping out to coils, but no change. In swapping out the coils do you need to physically swap the coil positions or just swap wires and HT lead?

    Would like to drive the car in my lifetime, anyone with success with this situation?

    Thanks
     
  2. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,664
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    Full Name:
    David Feinberg
    A timing light on the coil might be revealing...I'd start there.
    A scope on the Digiplex inputs would tell you the condition of the input signal.
    And, if they look good...I'd swap the Digiplex boxes and see if the problem moves.
     
  3. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Thanks, To check the coil do I do the same procedure as checking the plug wires? put the inductive clip on the HV wire and look for a mis or flicker in the strobe?
     
  4. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Put the timing light on the HV leads, the rear bank ( bank with misfire) had a fairly consistent flash with a couple of small flickers. the front bank had steady and consistent strobe flash. Is this indicating a weak rear bank coil?

    Thanks
     
  5. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Forgot to add, there is also an erratic Tach reading, bounces all around the gauge. I have replaced the Tach. TDC sensor. Would the one bank misfire cause the Tach reading to do this?
    Thanks.
     
  6. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Not necessarily. This just confirms that you have a misfire. There are several approaches that will get you to the end here. Starting with the bank that has the misfire, clamp on to the coil wire and see if you see the same flicker. If yes, then we need to look further upstream such as the coil or more likely, the Digiplex box. But, before we going that route, let's check each wire (individually) on the suspected bank. If just one flashes erratically, you'll need to ohm test that specific lead. New doesn't mean good, new just means new...
     
  7. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    Yes. Contrary to what you might think, the tach signal comes from the Digiplex box, not the crank triggers.
     
  8. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    All four plug wires on back bank show a misfire, as well as the back bank coil. Front bank coil and wires all checks fine.
     
  9. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #9 Bell Bloke, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
    Sounds like your 1-4 sensor is at fault, rearmost bank.
    This video of a my test may be revealing.
    There are 3 sensors 1-4 and 5-8 and a TDC.
    The engine will run with 1-4 and 5-8 disconnected as a simulated sensor failiure in a kind of primitive limp mode, the engine runs rough.
    If TDC sensor fails the engine will stop, TDC is the critical one.
    See here and you will get the idea.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw2WV7FTSd0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph3EOIKdLgI
     
  10. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Thanks Bell, I'll give that a go tomorrow. Much appreciated.
     
  11. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
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    Swap the Digiplex boxes. If the problem moves, you've got a bad Digiplex. If it doesn't move, then you're dealing with a crank trigger and/or harness issue. If you have a scope, you can confirm the quality of the signals at the Digiplex boxes.

    It should be a simple problem to solve from this point forward. PM if you need additional assistance.
     
  12. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Just to be certain, the 1-4 sensor is mounted on the rear bank near the top side of the block close to the distributor, correct?
     
  13. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #13 Bell Bloke, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
    No, the 1-4 is the sensor at the top most nearest the firewall ie nearest cylindar head 5-8 ;-)

    Quick, easy, cheap fault diagnosis, with engine running pull sensor wires 1-4 then reconnect and pull 5-8 as shown in the video.
    If you pull wire and engine note changes all is well.
    If you pull wire and engine note doesn't change, there is your fault.
    Start with sensor it's cheap and work back to thw packs etc or as others have suggested swap wiring between the packs and test again.
    The sensor is the most likely problem given that you are getting some kind of spark.
    PS. My problem wasn'tthe sensor but the plug to the sensor...a wire had fractured inside the rubber gator.
     
  14. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    O.K. started back on the Mondial.

    I started the car and pulled sensor 5-8 and car ran very rough. reconnected then disconnect sensor 1-4 and car ran as smooth as glass, however no spark on the front bank. could these sensors be connected up wrong? to the wrong plugs I didn't pull the Tach. sensor wire.
     
  15. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    I'm just checking here. What bank is front and rear as you see it...
    Cheers
    , Bell.
     
  16. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    front bank is rear of car. and rear bank is next to the firewall
     
  17. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    Ok I think we may get at cross purposes referring to them as front and rear banks.
    May I suggest you refer to them as 'bank 1-4' and 'bank 5-8'
    Based on that I'm assuming your fault is with Bank 1-4
     
  18. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    Yes the original Mis fire was on the 1-4 bank. the bank nearest the firewall, its a cab. QV

    Unplugged what I think is the 1-4 sensor and the car idled fine, better then before, but the 5-8 bank had no spark on the timing light. reconnected the 1-4 sensor then When I disconnected the 5-8 the car ran but very rough.
     
  19. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #19 Bell Bloke, Aug 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The bank nearest the firewall (the front of the car) is 5-8 the one nearest the trunk (the rear of the car) is 1-4
    Well anyway the first test is are getting a spark from both leads to each distributer, a quick and simple one.
    If you are not getting a spark to one of the distributors then you work back from there...
    Let us know, regards Bell.
    Here's a diagram to help orientation, so we are both on the same page.
    Regards Bell
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    O.K. that clears it up. so bank sensor 1-4 is by the 5-8 head. bank 5-8 sensor is at the bottom end of the block, and the Tach. sensor is on the 1-4 side of the block

    so inital misfire on back 5-8 clears up completly when I disconnect the 1-4 sensor, but then the 1-4 bank has no spark. When I disconnectd just the 5-8 sensor, i had spark to both sides but it ran very rough
     
  21. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    OK if you have spark to both distributers then you work forward to the sensors ie away from the coils and Digiplex boxes.
    1. Pull both 1-4 and 5-8 sensor wires.
    Even with 1-4 and 5-8 sensors disconnected both 1-4 and 5-8 banks will recieve a spark but the timing will be out on both banks but engine will run rough (limp mode)

    2. Now connect 1-4 and timing on that bank will fall into line and be correct, engine will run better. (check with timing light)

    3. Now connect 5-8 and timing on that bank will fall into line and be correct, engine will run better. (check with timing light)

    4. If when you connect 1-4 there is no change in engine running then that sensor is suspect.
    If when you connect 5-8 there is no change in engine running then that sensor is suspect.

    Check also you haven't mixed wires and connectors on 1-4 and 5-8.
    ie Make sure you havn't connected 1-4 wire with 5-8 sensor and 5-8 wire with 1-4 sensor.
    Regards Bell
     
  22. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    O.K. will do that shortly. How do you determine if the wires are crossed? and the sensors are attache to the right wires? is there a color code for the 1-4 and the 5-8?
     
  23. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    car will not start with both 1-4 and 5-8 sensors disconnectd.
     
  24. bigeasy

    bigeasy Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2012
    368
    theres a blue ,a black, and a white Sensor connector, do you know which goes to which sensor?
     
  25. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #25 Bell Bloke, Aug 21, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
    Have another look at my video, I will check too.

    I'm assuming that this is a recent fault with your car and that it was running fine until recently. Therefore the wires cant be the wrong way round unless someone has been in there?
    Anyway you can verify with a meter or just swap them one at a time and verify that way, if wrong the engine will pop and fart a bit, but if right engine will run smooth and you found your problem.
     

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