Mondial fuel! | FerrariChat

Mondial fuel!

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by AlfistaPortoghese, Oct 3, 2014.

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  1. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Good morning fellow Mondial owners,

    I have a question regarding the fuel we use in our Mondials.

    When the Mondial was conceived and put on sale, we still had leaded fuel. Engines were conceived and designed to work with that kind of fuel. As we all know, leaded fuel was phased out in the 1990s and completely banned eventually.

    Which brings me to two issues: what kind of fuel do you use and which fuel is the most indicated to compensate for the lack of lead in today's fuels?

    Are there any potential consequences, over time, of using unleaded fuel on a leaded fuel prepared engine? If so, what are they?

    Over here in Portugal (and indeed in most European countries) we have three kinds of fuel:

    - Unleaded 95 octanes.
    - Unleaded 98 octanes.
    - Unleaded 100 octanes. (Only available in some gas stations/markets/countries).

    I have also heard about fuel addictives that you add to the unleaded fuel to somewhat compensate for the lack of lead.

    I hope this isn't a repost. I have searched the internet to no avail. First in my mother tongue (portuguese) but there are few and confusing articles. In english there's an array of literature, but very few cientific debate and/or owners' experiences.

    Thank you all in advance.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  2. abignami

    abignami Karting

    May 20, 2010
    76
    Milano, Italy
    Full Name:
    Alessandro Bignami
    Hello,
    there is somewhere in this forum or in the 308 forum a thread where someone posted a letter from Ferrari where there is the complete list of cars that can use unleaded fuel without troubles (sorry, I can't look for the link now).
    I don't remember if it was just for the American market or for every market but it's a starting point.

    Speaking about Mondial and 3x8 with the mechanic (42 years in Ferrari) that is helping me in finding my car (soon, hopefully) he told me that QV and 3.2 engines have no troubles at all with unleaded fuel.

    I think that 95 octane and upper are all good for these engines, so here in Europe you don't have problems. Maybe 98 octane is a good compromise between price and fuel performance.
     
  3. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,814
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #3 soucorp, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
    My US spec 88 3.2 says to use premium unleaded fuel right on the fuel lid door and also in the owners manual. I use 93 octane when possible, in the states we have 87, 89, 93 at most stations. I'm not sure why it would be any different for your 88 Euro spec but can't confirm.

    In the US, leaded gas was phased out in the 70s and finally banned as a fuel additive in 1996. By the early 80s, only 20% gas was leaded and eventually eliminated from the refinery.

    Check your Owners Manual if it came with the car.
    here is ref: THE TRUTH ABOUT UNLEADED - Vintage European Automobiles club

    Best,
    Mike
     
  4. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Thanks a lot Mike and Alessandro (grazie mille), that's interesting and valuable reading!

    Octane indexes vary a lot from Europe to the US, it was nice to learn that too.

    My Mondial didn't have a lot of mileage when leaded fuel started being phased out over here (20.000km give or take according to the book), I'm now at 45.000km (bought it with 44.500km) but still believe/hope valve seats aren't an issue. However, I only use 98 octane fuel over here.

    I wonder if/how much performance is actually lost by the switch to unleaded.

    Kindest regards,

    Nuno.
     
  5. abignami

    abignami Karting

    May 20, 2010
    76
    Milano, Italy
    Full Name:
    Alessandro Bignami
    I think that performance is not related to leaded vs. unleaded fuel if not marginally. Lead fuel had a better lubricating properties and engine built for it need some additive to prevent valve damage.

    The number of octane shows the capacity of the fuel of not detonating just for compression before the spark; so, the higher the number the higher it could be the compression ratio of the engine.

    Maybe you could have a little more power with higher octane fuel... but it's just a guess and I couldn't find any scientific clue demostrating it. Maybe it's out there but I don't have time to look for it :)

    Alessandro
     
  6. Journiacois

    Journiacois Formula Junior

    Dec 28, 2013
    260
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    I know mine is an unscientific sample, but I found on my recent trip through Italy that when I had 98/100 octane in the tank I got more than 9kml. It dropped to mid to upper 8kml with 95. What I'm really worried about is that they are starting to add ethanol to 95 octane fuel in Europe and that could really affect the engines long term on 95.
     
  7. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,814
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #7 soucorp, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We have 10% ethanol already in the states at every pump, thanks to EPA! They have plans to make the ratio go up moving forward so it only will get worst for classic car guys.
    Its not what it does to the engine but more so ethanol just eats away at the rubber fuel lines and aluminum gas tanks. Only need a pinhole to start a car fire! YIKES!!! This is why I carry 2 fire extinguishers in the car at all times.

    Pros of ethanol-supplemented fuel:
    Ethanol is clean-burning and is a higher-octane fuel than conventional gas.
    Ethanol is produced from renewable sources.
    Ethanol-powered vehicles produce lower carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide emissions, and lower levels of hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions.
    Ethanol production keeps American farmers in business and creates new farming and ethanol-processing jobs.
    Because ethanol is produced domestically, it reduces U.S. dependence on foreign oil and increases the nation’s energy independence.
    Ethanol needs fewer fossil (coal) and petroleum (gas) fuels to produce more BTU of energy than gasoline (although it does require much more water).

    Cons of ethanol-supplemented fuel:
    Ethanol creates 34 percent less energy than unadulterated gasoline per gallon. This equals a loss in fuel economy of up to 3 miles per gallon for E10 fuels. In terms of heat, ethanol produces 76,330 BTU per gallon, whereas diesel fuel produces 128,450 BTU per gallon, gasoline 116,090 BTU per gallon and LP gas 84,950 BTU per gallon. The fuel economy gets even worse with E85, a loss of 7 to 8 miles per gallon with its higher ethanol content. Consumer Reports, testing in 2006, verified a loss in fuel economy of up to 30 percent in a Chevy Tahoe designed to run on flex fuel when it was tested with both unleaded gas and E85. Poor fuel economy can also be attributed to improper fuel system calibration based on computer feedback from oxygen sensors because of the temperatures needed to burn ethanol.
    Virtually any grain considered feedstock can be used to make ethanol, but some grains are better for producing ethanol than others. Corn happens to be one of the worst grains for making ethanol but we produce so much more of it than any other grain that it was the ingredient of choice for U.S. ethanol producers. In South America, ethanol is produced from sugar cane, which is easier to refine and gives a higher yield per acre than corn (1,200 gallons per acre vs. 300 gallons per acre of corn). The U.S. government did impose a 55 cents per gallon tariff to prevent the import of sugar cane-based ethanol into the United States, though that tariff has recently expired).
    Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water more easily than gasoline. That leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, carburetor fuel bowls and fuel lines where air spaces are present. Water content in fuel will also swell up the paper filter media inside fuel filters not specifically designed for flex fuels and can thus restrict fuel flow at the filter.
    Ethanol also erodes fiberglass tanks, rubber hoses and plastic fuel lines. It contributes to rust in fuel systems by creating condensation in the unfilled portion of gas tanks. It will also dissolve varnish and rust in steel fuel components. These dissolved ingredients sit in the bottom of gas tanks until they are removed or they will enter the fuel system if the fuel level in the tank gets too low.

    So what is a classic car owner to do? Especially when their car is sitting unused in the garage more than it is on the road? It has been stated that you can counteract the poor fuel mileage by driving at a consistent speed of between 40 and 60 MPH but that doesn’t really apply to boats or classic cars that are parked or do not have cruise control in most cases.

    Several recommendations of things you can do that should help come from OE marine manufacturers who have been battling these ethanol-related fuel problems:

    Replace any plastic or rubber fuel lines with ethanol-resistant hose or nylon tubing.
    Install a water separator filter in the fuel line leading to the carburetor. Water collects in the filter and can be removed periodically.
    Replace any fiberglass tanks with steel or aluminum.
    Ensure that any O-rings in the fuel system are also ethanol-compatible.
    Keep your tank as full as possible to prevent air space where condensation can form.
    Use specific ethanol-compatible fuel storage additives. These are normally blue in color. Regular fuel stabilizers will not work unless they are labeled ethanol fuel-compatible.
    Shop around for a marina or service station that does not pump E10 or E85. None of these stations will be affiliated with a major gasoline producer, but there are still some out there, especially in areas around lakes and rivers where boating is popular. You can find a “pure gas” map of many of these stations online at the Historic Vehicle Association website
    Vent your fuel system during storage for extended periods; the moisture your fuel system might absorb from the outside will be less than the moisture created in the air space inside.
    Use a fogging solution in your carburetor during storage to prevent condensation from collecting in fuel bowls.
    Use of isopropyl alcohol-based dry gas will help to absorb system moisture. Regular dry gas is ethanol-based and will only make the problem worse. Isopropyl-based additives actually combine with the water molecules and removing moisture through the combustion chamber.
    Use of a flex fuel-compatible fuel filter where possible will prevent degradation of the paper media in your filter by water in the fuel system.

    source: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/11/14/tech-101-ethanol-in-gasoline-and-its-effects-on-collector-cars/
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  8. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
    Owner

    Mar 18, 2007
    2,379
    Northern VA
    Full Name:
    Dave W
    The good news, lead is due to be removed from aviation fuel in the next five or so years. It's replacement will be 100 octane and alcohol free. Perfect for our Mondials. The bad news, it will cost $10/gallon and be illegal to use in cars.
     
  9. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Octane is measured differently here than in Europe. 93 in the US (premium) is equivalent to 98 where you are.

    RON Reaserch Octane Number. (Used in Europe and elswhere in gas stations)
    MON Motor Octane Number.
    AKI Anti-Knock Index. This is the number that is posted on the gas station in the US as "Octane". It is derived as (RON + MON)/2

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  10. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    #10 AlfistaPortoghese, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
    Thanks Jerry for clearing that up :)

    Mike that was a pretty comprehensive and useful post, as always! I have the experience of driving in Brazil when I lived there, where Ethanol is king. Don't know much about engineering, but Ethanol increses horsepower in modern cars sold over there (says so on owners' manuals), reduce mileage per galon increasing fuel consumption, is cheaper than regular gasoline and it's very complicated to get the car started during cold weather (it can be really cold in the south) and/or after long periods of inactivity.

    Anyway, definately not good news for classic car owners! A lot of adapting and creative thinking on our part is definately required!

    Best regards,

    Nuno.
     
  11. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

    Oct 11, 2004
    3,292
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Malc Holden
    I always used 97-99 RON in my 1983 Mondial QV unless caught out when I had to use 95RON. Never had any known problems caused through it.
     

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