Ferrari Price Appreciation and the Mondial | FerrariChat

Ferrari Price Appreciation and the Mondial

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by paulchua, Jan 5, 2015.

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  1. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #1 paulchua, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Not a day goes by where you don’t hear some vintage Ferrari going for record breaking prices. There’s been an increase in values for many Ferrari. I’ve seen this just on my experience browsing through classifieds.

    The resurgence of the Testarossa and Contach has been making the media rounds. I think they passed the dip where their style were considered ‘outdated’ and garish. They are now cemented as the icons they are. I mean this makes sense to me, a lot of the vintage Ferrari can look ‘goofy’ or ‘overdone’ given a few model cycles after their initial release….only to rise again like a phoenix from the ashes – reclaiming their glorious spots in automotive history.

    In a way, I think every car goes through this (more so with exotics) – a period where the design is fresh and awesome, then it gets overshadowed by the next fresh and awesome design – then it gets relegated to the dustbin of irrelevancy….until many years pass by where they are rare and special again and begin their journey to ‘classic’ status (and priced accordingly.) This is where I argue the 360/430 will continue to drift down for the next 10-15 years as they will slowly but surely be overshadowed by the 458/458t and the 458’s successor…and then to the 458…and the cycle continues.

    Curious, I decided however to go to Haggerty and look up some vehicles. First I looked at the Testarossa, and sure enough – there you see the crazy spike. The same can be said about the 328 and 348. Interestingly enough, the 355 seems to have hit its ‘dip’ and I argue will start to rise in some time.

    I was most curious about the other two ‘red-haired’ step children of the epoch along with the sometimes maligned ‘Mondial’ – the 308 GT4 and 400 series.
    I saw that sure enough the prices on the two matched my anecdotal experiences- they are spiking again. Of course, this has a lot to do with a good economy and other record breaking Ferrari sales “lifting the tide” so to speak.

    I would be lying though if I didn’t say I was somewhat surprised with the Mondial was flat. Is this a case of naysayers being correct? That the Mondial is cursed with some special badge of dishonor that has escaped the equally and sometimes more criticized 308 GT4/400 series? Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy, where parroting media simply try to outdo each other on who can bully a car more?

    I need not preach to the choir here on the Mondial chat board, we all know the truth – these cars are the most underrated exotic (ever?) That being said, I see prices steadily climbing (by word of mouth) in Europe. I wonder if and when this will hit the shores of the states….

    Even if prices remain stagnant for the next 15 years, it's still a win for me as that's 15 years where I have relatively reasonable replacement parts. So either way we win gentlemen. In fact, if prices do spike - it would be bittersweet indeed as a replacement or repair will most likely enter the stratosphere and daily driving may no longer be a viable proposition from a financial standpoint, and dare I say...liquidation for an exit?

    Yes, I am reaching quite high, so excuse my hubris, a guy can dream, that is after all part of the Ferrari mystique and experience.

    We are, of course, at the mercy of macroeconomic business cycles and the possibility of geopolitical black swans that could sink prices. That being said – I’m glad to be here now with you fine gentlemen and look forward to what 2015 and the future of the Mondial will bring…I hope you guys enjoy the charts.


    Happy 2015
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  2. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #2 AlfistaPortoghese, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
    Quality work, analysis and research, Paul. Thank you for sharing!

    You've made several very interesting and valid points imho in your post.

    Regarding Mondials in Europe vs. North America: From where I stand, I haven't seen an increase in price yet. It seems to be quite flat and stable. What happens is the Mondial, for some reason, never depreciated over here the way it did over there. I believe Mondials both in Europe and in the US are fully depreciated, but full depreciation over here means it's still more valuable than in the US. Personally I've never seen a running Mondial on sale for less than 25.000 USD (it was a white italian Mondial 3.0 QV). Mondials in Portugal trade between 35.000 USD (30.000€) and 42.000 USD (35.000€) on average. I can account however for the spikes in price posted by Paul regarding other Ferraris. Testarossas in particular seem they're made out of gold these past 24 months. It seems some Ferraris are increasing in price just because, and others aren't for an identical ilogical reason. Mine is a 3.2 cabriolet from 1988, the first to be sold new in Portugal, participated in documented events, fully original, never restored, complete history, absolutely always maintained at an official Ferrari dealer, with absolutely every accessory and Ferrari Classiche certified, just under 28.000 miles (45.000km) on the clock, undergone a major the month after I bought it and I seriously doubt that if I were to sell, that I'd get more money than I spent. The economy and Ferrari's internal changes may be accounting for spikes in prices, why some do rise and some don't baffles me. I'd expect to see a sustained growth in price in Enzo era cars and a strong rise in Montezemolo era cars as a whole, not fractioned by model. Some rising exponentially and others remaining absolutely the same in terms of value baffles me. I'd expect to see, lets say, 308s going up by 10%, Testarossas 15%, Mondials 5%, etc. I wasn't expecting Testarossas spiking 20 or 30% and Mondials 0, 1 or 2% max, for instance (purely fictional examples to better ilustrate what I was expecting and anticipating). I don't believe supply and demand explains everything. It may be important, it may even be the biggest factor in price formation, but not the ONLY factor.

    Your analysis Paul is scientific but worrying: it does seem to indicate that, afterall, a rising tide doesn't float all boats. That's what strikes me the most after taking in the data put forward. How/why a Ferrari and the only car EVER mass produced in automotive history that is a 4 seater, mid engined V8 and full cabriolet doesn't go up in price is beyond me.

    Regarding spare parts becoming increasingly scarce in the future: I rest my hopes in 3D printers!

    Kindest regards, all the best and thanks once again!

    Nuno.
     
  3. billh1963

    billh1963 Formula Junior
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    Let's see what happens when Fiat sells Ferrari to A Chinese firm. I predict ALL Enzo era cars will skyrocket
     
  4. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2011
    17,389
    I'm not selling... But if I were I'd let my mechanic find me a buyer as he's already had offers for my car at a price where if I took it I'd have driven for a few years and paid for all maintenance and have enough for a nice cruise left over. I wouldn't sell here and let the f-chat price haters lower the value by 15k. I firmly believe nice 3.2 cabs are in the high 40s now. I never realized how many cars were bought and sold privately without ever being advertised (never really thought of it before I guess).
     
  5. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    That's what I saw earlier :) also on continental Europe it is flat in imho. Prices steadily climbing seems to be only in the UK, not sure if it is the car racing history traditions or the RHD models. Or perhaps both that make it an interesting combination for the UK buyer.

    ;)
    I guess it applies to all non Italian Countries in a certain extent. If it isn't Italian anymore the brand will mostlikely loses a certain Italian charm.
     
  6. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    I got luck and bought the Mondial because it was half the price of a two seater. Then I found out it is by far the better of the two cars for a daily driver. Lots of head room. Giant parcel sheves behind the front seats. And Elegant As Hell.

    Besides. Eventually the car will end up in my estate along with my 50 year old Corvair convertible. Incidentally, I paid $900 for the Corvair in 1980 and I hear it is now worth $12,000. Not sure I believe that - after all it is not a 1964 Mustang Fastback.

    With any luck the Mondial will find itself in my estate just one month before it holes a piston.
     
  7. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Forgot to mention: I never expected the Mondial (or any Ferrari 4 seater to that matter) to rise up in value in the same proportion/rate than a 2 seater V12. But I did expect to see the Mondial rise along with the 308 GT4 and the 400 series, something that apparently isn't true.

    I'm left scratching my head as to why. Can't find one valid reason for that. On top of that, they're all Enzo era cars. I'm baffled.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  8. lince

    lince Karting

    Sep 26, 2006
    142
    Patience market always gets to the cars not long ago my Mercedes 190sl wasnt worth more than 50.000 now in a year the have gone triple that the same for the Testarossa the countach the Jalpa and even the F40 you should just enjoy love and take care of the car their time will come and you will rewarded with lovely memories, great weekends family time and in medium to long term great ROI. I love cars and that the are great investment its just a plus
     
  9. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

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    RE 190 sl - One of my favorites of all time.

    What we are seeing is what I predicted demographically decades ago. I am among the first of the Baby Boomers, and when I moved to DC 1973 houses were going up 25% a year. I resolved never to let that happen again which is why I bought my retirement house in 1996.

    Many of my generation inherited some money from their post WWII parents. Then went on to make good living over the next 50 years. And plenty of them did very well on their own. That generation is now peaking and net-worth is being converted to net-stuff. It can still go on for even more then a decade or two.
     
  10. Mondi88

    Mondi88 Karting

    Aug 4, 2014
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    Things seem different here in the UK and with Ferrari pricing, the UK goes first and US follows?

    Ok, these are ASKING prices but cars also seem to be selling faster in Q4 of 2014 than earlier in the year, indicating stronger demand and therefore, perhaps, selling prices being close to asking.

    When I started looking for Mondials about a year ago;
    - a good low mileage Mondial 8 was around £15-20k. One has just come up for £28k.
    - 30k mile 3.2 coupe's were high teens, they're now mid £20k's.
    - T's were around £30k for a good low mileage example. A 14k miles example was up for £55k in Q4 and has now sold. Another owner was recently advised £45-50k for a similar mile car by an auction house.

    I'm glad I bought when I did here in the UK otherwise I wouldn't be able to now and my dream would be lost.
     
  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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  12. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

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    I would never suggest anyone speculate in motor vehicles. However, modest investor that I have been over the decades I can tell you two things. I almost always know when to buy. And almost never know when to sell.

    And Mondials are on my buy list. In fact I bought one in 2013. I do not consider it an investment. But if I were considering a Ferrari a Mondial is about as good a driver investment you can make right now.
     
  13. Mondi88

    Mondi88 Karting

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    Hi Paul - I'm sure Haggerty is accurate (covers US only?) and this apparent "rise" in the UK appears very recent. My point was, if it is a real/tangible rise, it may creep your side of the pond this year.

    Let's try and keep these wonderful cars an affordable secret though! :)
     
  14. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    I paid a low price for my Mondial, and I don't expect it to rise much - ever.

    I also have a Porsche 928, another unloved and underpriced car that will probably never appreciate. Oops.
     
  15. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 Wade, Jan 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. chrismic

    chrismic Formula Junior

    Jan 7, 2012
    272
    I think the asking prices in Europe (continental) are slowly rising as well. I also consider the Mondial undervalued in Europe, in the US as well, of course. I think what has kept it from appreciating is simply its design. It is very peculiar. I have been a classic car enthusiast for about 25 years, and bought by first classic and second overall car in 1995 (Alfa GTV Bertone which I am driving to this day). I never particularly liked the Mondial up until 2 years ago. Since then, its lines have been growing on me by the day. My point is, I don't think it's a love at first sight car, and that has had an impact in price. I agree with others that now is the time to buy...I am certain that it will appreciate before too long.
     
  17. billh1963

    billh1963 Formula Junior
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    It's interesting how some cars considered ugly when first sold are now considered good looking. I wonder if that is because of changes in taste or because they become valuable and people's perception changes (in the way that a girl suddenly finds an ugly man attractive when she discovers he has money)

    An example is the Porsche 914-6. The 914 was considered ugly for years and had little value. However, once the prices of early 911's started rising the 914-6 went up as well. A really nice one will push $100k USD. You see advertisements describing the "iconic" shap, or "handsome" lines....terms never used when they were new!

    I liked the lines of the Mondial coupe the first time I saw one. So, are Mondial's really ugly or is it another effect?
     
  18. chrismic

    chrismic Formula Junior

    Jan 7, 2012
    272
    Bill, good point about the 914. Agree that the 914 and 928 are Porsche's Mondial. I don't think that the Mondial's appeal increases with value (which is still relatively low, after all). I think it is the design. I never found it ugly, but what is peculiar is, of course, the postion of the driver's seat. It's not the front or rear, both of which are beautiful, but the side view which has to grow on you (in my view). The other point is, the Mondial is probably the only F that does not photograph too well (although there are great photos of it of course). It looks much better in reality...another factor that influences general appreciation (not monetary). I think my personal Mondial moment was exactly when I looked at one in detail in reality.
     
  19. Mondi88

    Mondi88 Karting

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    +1 and x 1000. When I took the plunge and viewed a Mondial in the flesh, it utterly surpassed all expectations. Photographs, how ever good, never do this car justice.
     
  20. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
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    I think some cars age better than others. Some cars that appear cutting edge and exotic, look tired two years later. I've fallen prey to that. Sometimes cars that look odd when new grow into their look, or the market catches up and the look becomes more common and more comfortable. I've found it interesting that older women have looked at my car and felt they had to comment on how beautiful it is without knowing what it is. 70's and 80's.

    I never found the testarossa attractive until I saw one in person and then it really affected me.

    The only advantage for me if the value goes up is that the cost of maintenance as a percentage of value will go down. Won't cost any less but it might seem less silly.
     
  21. 82Black8

    82Black8 Rookie

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    As a counter point, there's an 82 Mondial, red with tan, for sale on Autotrader, in NJ, by a private seller who's asking $26500. That's the highest price I've seen for an 8 in some time. Of course, it's worth nothing until a buyer lays down cash....
     
  22. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #22 paulchua, Jan 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Wade,

    Thanks for your post...I pulled these from Hagerty.

    I've been using the much maligned 308 GT4 and 412 as benchmarks.

    Hope you guys find this interesting...
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  23. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Agreed AlfistaPortogehse! If you look at my previous post, as well as recent press - the 400 and 308 GT4 are undergoing a sort of renaissance of appreciation (both literally and figuratively)

    I've always liked the look of both - and based on my experiences, the GT4/400 has gotten just as much naysayers as the Mondial - it seems like both have finally hit their 'time.'

    "Driving the Dino 308 GT4, the Most *Controversial* Ferrari in History"
    Here is an awesome recent article/video of the GT4:
    Video: Ferrari Dino 308 GT4 - Gear Patrol

    Here is an article about the new 'collectability' of the 400...
    Why The Ferrari 400i Is Collectable | Petrolicious

    Both of these articles would have been unheard of just 5 years ago...

    Here is a quote from the second article
    "Often denigrated, primarily because of quality issues but also over subjective reactions to the design, the 400i is actually the cheapest way into a Ferrari V-12, so a specimen that has enjoyed some loving attention could make a superb addition to the collection. “Probably under-appreciated,” writes a friend who owns a V-8 Ferrari. “Like many of that vintage,”

    hmmm...sound familiar?
     
  24. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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  25. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Just funnin' with you. If you didn't notice, I created my own chart. :)
     

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