Engine Fire, what if... | FerrariChat

Engine Fire, what if...

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Bell Bloke, Feb 14, 2015.

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  1. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    I was looking through Youtube at various lovelies, like you do, and happened on this nightmare!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqpa1HB-wOc
    Fire has always been a thought in the back of my mind with my multi carbed cars but at least with these cars the fuel is not under a very great pressure.
    However with our Mondials and 328 cars the fuel is under massive pressure so the slightest failure in the system would be catastrophic. Now I have 2 hand held fire extinguishers in the cars but no way would they deal I think with this. I know we should check our fuel systems but supposing in an accident a line ruptured, is there a non fitted hand held extinguisher that would deal with something like this? Or would even an on board system stop a fire like this assuming the ignition was cut and fuel stopped.
    Just wondering on your thoughts Folks.
    All the best Bell
     
  2. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    I'll have a nightmare tonight... I had never given it much thought, until now! What a disaster, a heartbreaking moment... Bell, even if we carry an extinguisher, will our normal extinguisher be a match for such a wild fire? A fuel fed fire is almost unstoppable. I think it won't be enough. I can't help but feel a sense of helplessness. I believe an engine cut off button would help to prevent a fire in the first place, but after it ignites, there's little one can do, imho.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If the car is insured do not even consider putting it out. Make sure people are safe then get some marshmallows.
     
  4. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    Ha ha Rifledriver....love it!! Yes you aree frobably right. What do you know about these on board systems? You race a bit don't you...are they any good?

    Hi Nuno, obviously the first thing to do would be to turn off the ignition and stop the fuel flow. The Miura here has 6 bowls of fuel in the carbs that are feeding the fire and they would take quite a while to burn out, the fuel tank however is in the front and that's why it didnt burn up completely. With the Mondial jetronic system there are no fuel resevoirs like the Miuras carbs however the fuel tank is in the back near the engine so if you have a fire you need to get it out quickly or run away!! Opening the engine cover to fight a fire would make it worse, a powerful co2 blast through both vents in the side of the car would I think be the best chance of getting it out but if that failed then I would imagine you'd be stuffed. But hey I'm just guessing here....
     
  5. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    A guy here with a 308 just had one. He carried a 5# and said it was not early enough.
     
  6. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    This recently happened to a good friend of mine. His car was superb and very well maintained. Although he had the SRI fuel hoses there's a possibility that the plastic FI lines may have been the point of failure.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferraris/473825-1983-ferrari-308qv-engine-fire-victim.html
     
  7. Antwan

    Antwan Karting

    Nov 22, 2013
    188
    Manchester UK
    Yup this is heartbreaking. One less on the roads, but at least it was out on the road!

    Thing is, I don't think it is uncommon in these cars. Thankfully I have found and corrected 4 issues whilst my engine has been out. 2 split tanks, return line being worn away by the gear selector and HP side of fuel pump had been weeping. I will post about the tanks soon.

    I have had 2 kit cars in the past and once every month or two I would check over the cars for any issues. I think these need similar attention.
     
  8. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    All good points.

    Often overlooked are the high pressure braided hoses -- I think due to their external appearance giving no indications of internal condition, and the reluctance on the part of some DIY'ers to tackle hoses with fittings.

    User 'aec' installed a large bottle in the boot of his 't' with maybe both manual and automatic discharge, IIRC.

    Marine suppliers -- yes, I know I blather on about sourcing parts from these -- provide low-residue automatic and manual discharge extinguishers with remote actuation, etc. Prices are $USD 300 for the smallest units and you could easily plan on spending 2x, 3x that. Seems worth it IMO, and it's something I definitely have plans for.

    I spoke with a friend who owns a fire equipment installation / service company and he scoffed at my idea of using a halon (or halon-replacement) unit of any size in the engine compartment ... he said "enclosed spaces only".

    Bell Bloke -- what do helicopters have? Any regulatory requirements for fire-fighting equipment on board?
     
  9. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,814
    Old Dominion
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    Yes, that is some scary stuff, that's why I carry 2 extinguishers and need a third but like Nuno said, once a gas fire starts, hard to stop unless you have a fire truck right there.

    Here is a 308 that caught fire at the gas pump.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L3l43HewDQ[/ame]
     
  10. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
    4,248
    The Netherlands - NH
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    Tijn
    +1 with Charles.

    I can't say it enough to replace your rubber. If it ruptures you get light up! ...or pregnant :) Looks like this filler hose was loose or ruptured. Besides that an all risk insurance maybe ;) not doing either of both.. not sure if that is wise.

    Useless in putting it down. if not wrecked by fire the firemen (they need to follow procedure) will with their crowbars looking for the battery like this 308's trunk.
     
  11. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
    4,248
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    Tijn
    Indeed the air is the fuel for the fire. I have a feeling it will not stop if you have a Mondial. Jetronic, fuel acumulator ;) It will continue to deliver pressure for some moments to ignite the party fire ball. Except if you have cabs of course.

    I have a 5ltr foam fire extinguisher and a woolen blanket to buy time to save someone if needed. I don't want to aim a CO2 fire extinguisher at someone :) not sure what it does but it can't be good :p
     
  12. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2004
    4,151
    Marietta, GA
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    If your friend, passenger, or a bystander is on fire - go ahead with that CO2 extinguisher. They'll appreciate the effort, even if its hard to breathe for a couple seconds. Consider the alternative, from their perspective.

    I can't imagine anything worse than burning alive...
     
  13. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #13 mulo rampante, Feb 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    When I first got my car, I noticed what appeared to be solidified tar on a heat shield under/near the fuel distributor. It turned out to be some melted split loom tubing that a PO had placed around the plastic fuel lines that come out of the fuel distributor. So it was evident that there was some heat there.

    I did two things to remedy this; I fabricated a larger heat shield to direct heat away from the fuel system components and direct it up along the rear firewall, and I wrapped the plastic lines in some sleeving -- I think it's called thermoflect. It has velcro sewn into it, so it is removable for inspection.

    I think this goes a long way toward protecting those parts. If one of the lines leaked, the shield (three layers of Al with air spacing between) would hopefully direct it in a manner that would be less likely to start a fire.

    In the photo, you can just see one edge of the shield toward the left with its folded and riveted construction. The sleeving is more obvious, forgive the untidy engine.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
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    Nuno
    Don't know if it's possible, but it would be great to learn more about that Miura's history. At least to see if we can uncover more reasons as to why it caught fire: overdue maintenance, a freak one-off incident, a "do it youself" gone bad, etc. A lot could have caused that: overpressured oil pipe, fuel leak, etc. If we could know more, it might help us take preemptive measures. I still believe a raging fire like that isn't easy put off, and I'm still reluctant to accept that our ordinary fire extinguishers would be a match for an inferno that could unravel in a matter of seconds.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  15. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    I agree with this. I don't keep a fire extinguisher in the car. I keep the insurance up to date and try to keep the car maintained. Accidents happen. That is what insurance is for.

    Any fire, even small will likely put our cars close to salvage. Best to get well away and not risk getting a flash of flames in the face or even up the arms while trying to fight flames. Stand clear. Skin is more painful to lose than a car.
     
  16. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    They say sparkplugs.. but you still need fuel. The story is here. I have my own opinion since sparkplug cannot overheat an engine so much that it melts rubber fuel lines. especially not when you drive 30 in a suburb where you almost idle around, meaning that the engine is not pushed on its tale. I'm afraid we will never know the real cause.

    Foxtons estate agents founder sues garage after £1m Lamborghini blows up - Telegraph
     
  17. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 World Champ

    Nov 25, 2010
    11,070
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    I have put out three car fires, obviously a lot of variables, but if you can catch it quick and safely you can put it out.
     
  18. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,214
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    Tim Keseluk
    Good advice. You'll most likely be money ahead.

    A gasoline fed fire is virtually impossible to extinguish.
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    And you don't want your insurance company to even consider repairing it. I have been involved with a few of them. You do not want it repaired.
     
  20. sabertooth

    sabertooth Rookie

    Jan 29, 2015
    48
    i would rather let it burn than try to fight it and get injured, unless of course its in the garage and the house is at stake.
     
  21. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
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    Thank you very much, Tijn!

    Too bad they are very vague and only say "spark plugs", not very technical. Difficult to see how spark plugs can be the (sole) culprit, as you so correctly pointed out.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  22. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #22 Bell Bloke, Feb 16, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
    Wow Guys, some really interesting points here. The general thought seems to be if you get a fire make sure you are insured and leave it alone although some have said that they might try and get it out but quickly. I feel from watching videos posted and some of your stories that obviously opening the engine bay to fight it is a big mistake. Therefore a hand held system is a bit dodgy to use and given that our cars have the fuel tanks right in the fire zone you are against the clock and could end up seriously burned if you waited around trying to fight it. I think that I'm going to get one of these on board self deploying systems, I've not really looked into it yet but here is a very boring video from a UK manufacturer that has some demonstrations and also a link to supplier that sells various systems.
    Here are the links:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xbxNhXvjmg
    Motorsport Fire Extinguishers | Demon Tweeks

    I will let you know what I find and how I install it in a very discreet way.
    Regards Bell.

    PS this might be interesting:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzlBQ47rT9E
     
  23. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
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    #23 Wade, Feb 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You definitely want to bail out as soon as possible, especially in a Cab. That back-of-the-head wind blast you feel during a ride with the top down? Now couple that with flames coming out of the engine bay. The aerodynamics of most convertibles are not in our favor, which is why wind deflectors are so popular with modern convertibles.
    .
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  24. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    interesting when to use foam or CO2 and I guess the bad option we all agree on are powder extinguishers and water. IMO CO2 is ideal for fires involving electrical fires it also extinguish fuel fires, but has no post fire security like foam and the fire could re-ignite when the CO2 has worked out.

    Chat member AEC has made a very nice solution for his Mondial and he can trigger the fire extinguisher from the inner rear fender to put down a fire.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142369192-post23.html

    Jay has also something to say on old cars and having a fire extinguisher on board :)
    All About Fire Extinguishers - Jay Leno's Garage
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTdHmZ-FC4s[/ame]

    Not sure how this one started.. under the back seat :eek:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/135838841-post248.html
     
  25. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    See post 289 in the thread you referenced. From what I gather: Screw hole through tank from rear of interior, screw was removed. A split apparently developed at the site of the hole.

    I will be buying a large clean-agent unit when spring comes to this frigid wasteland... will report back.
     

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