3.2 v 3.4t torque curves

Power wise these engines had 270hp and 300hp in euro trim. At the wheels is closer given the longitudinal layout through a diff for the T, which saps a few %.
Regarding torque Im also curious to overlay all the Mondial's power/torque graphs.

 

more displacement more torque more fun.

My only concern with the t was that the engine has to go out for the belt service (thus higher long term maintenance effort). The 3.2 appears to be a good compromise but then I ended up liking the older look of the QV better (that is to have a good old fashioned bumper),


cheers

Braq

 

There's no replacement for displacement.

Or so I was taught as a wee lad.

Sid

 

it's called a turbo. my 4 banger saab (85ym 900t) can whoop you around a track!
my offer still stands

i think the biggest difference in the power ability in this car comes from the construction internal to the motor. if for more power, in the same size casting, they were to use a larger bore, rather than increase the stroke of the pistons, this can lead to a much faster and lower rpm power/torque. a larger stroke would not be as useful in this situation to achieve a lower rpm power point.

if you want some fun, there are a lot of neat "engine builder" simulator/calculators that can run a set of parameters to predict the possible outcomes of engine power. they're really nifty and can very accurately show the differences of bore vs stroke. i can't remember what the name was of the one i used in my engines class, but it was old and neat.

 

here is the best I can do, I don't have the 8, and the t version is poor, but I assume you can use your imagination above and below the first one to kinda get an idea for the 8 and t
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It ain't Murican. We can only think in terms of "Cubic Inches", "Horse Power", and "Foot-Lbs". Anything else is feriner speak.


Sid (from Texas)

 

I can only speak on behalf of the T because it has the F119 3.4L block, same block the 348 has. I have mild modifications on my F119 engine and I have dyno'd my 348 many, many, many times. It's best pulls were 305hp @ 7200rpm & 234lb/ft @ 6100rpm to the hubs. By 6900rpm it is making 300hp and carries it flat out to the rev limiter @ 7750rpm. The torque curve builds up to 6100rpm starts tapering off after that, at 7000rpm it's done and falls off the cliff. I don't know exactly what the drive train loss is, if it's -8% loss I'm in the 330hp/254tq range at the crank, if it's the typical "rule of thumb" -15% loss that puts the crank power closer to 360hp/275tq. I say this because last summer I had a little run against a Dodger Challenger RT. The RT is rated at 379hp/410tq. It was a dead heat. I couldn't pull away from the RT, it couldn't reel me in, and vice versa. Even though it has way more torque it also weighs about 1000lbs more than my 348. Anyway, I was very happy that my 25 year old car could hang with a modern car.

The F119 is not a bottom end torque monster like American iron, it's a rev'r making its power by spinning higher. The torque can be moved lower or higher by advancing or retarding the cam timing.

So you Mondial T guys should do some mods to your F119s to really wake them up. What mods?

1) Throttle bodies tapper ported to 57mm at the throttle valve out to 62mm at the opening.

2) Intake runners ported, in particular removing the Venturi bump inside the runner just before the injector port, match the inner diameter to bottom exit, and giving the runner inlets more of a radius shape.

3) custom headers, fabspeed makes a set for the 348, I don't know if they'll fit inside the T engine bay though

4) high flow 200 cell metal core cats

5) free flow muffler

Those mods will help free up the breathing of the F119 and give you a nice bump in power versus stock.

 

Great info, thanks.

Most use 12-15% for rwd power loss and 18-20% for AWD.

Who is doing this work, for instance, doing the porting on the TB's and intake runners?

How loud are the 200 cell cats (what is stock, 400?).

I actually find the 3.4 very tractable, it pulls from 1000 rpm just fine. As much as I wouldn't mind a little more power (too much is almost enough), I think what the car needs is less gear at the top. With a more moderate ring and pinion, this thing would still be quick (and especially if headers are added) and get incredibly good fuel mileage for what it is.

Shoot me a PM if this is too much OT.

Thanks.

Regards,
Jerry

 

These guys Maxbore.com throttle body boring service and repair can port the throttle bodies. He charges $125 each. The ported TBs are good for an additional 4-5hp at the hubs/wheels, I have actually verified that on the dyno.

The intake runners I had ported by a shop that does cylinder head porting. I paid $500 each side for the port work, which included flow matching the runners. I don't have before and after dynos for that, but you can figure another 5-10hp to the hubs/wheels. Any reputable cylinder head shop in your area can do the port work.

As for the headers, FabSpeed makes a set for the 348. I don't know if they will fit the Modial engine bay, so you may wanna call FabSpeed and ask.

I'm not sure how many cells the stock cats have, but they are restrictive. There is an air "diffuser" at the inlet of the stock cat which acts more as a restriction. As for loudness, it could get a little louder with the 200 cell cats, but not much. The main thing is removing the restriction in flow while at the same time keeping the exhaust cleaner.

 

There is a twin turbo 348 running around in Cali making over +600hp to the wheels. Boost is a whole different ball game. Heck there are 4bangers making over 1200hp on boost.

 

True to a point.

You can have big displacement and still not make power. The 5.4L Triton engine in my '97 Expedition was rated from the factory at 235hp/335tq. Which is awful for that much displacement. The later 3 valve engines (2010) got a bump in power to 310hp/365tq. The dual intake valves allowed the engine to drawn in more air. Displacement is only good when the engine is able to breath, or ingest the amount of air needed to make power. Big pistons and a long stroke can only pull so much air through a coffee straw.

 

Hahahaha!!!

 

Our t has a very smooth power curve and good pick-up above 3000rpm. However, for some reason when I reset the computer it is an animal for 50 or so miles. Instant throttle response, temperamental exhaust note, downright angry. Unfortunately after 50 miles or less it settles down. How can I make it like that all of the time?

Dave

 

Get it custom tuned on the dyno.

As for your resetting the ecu. The Motronic goes to a base initial run map, then as you drive it learns the part throttle (closed loop) air fuel ratios, and then adjusted for them. Wide open throttle (open loop in the ecu) is a set map and it is not self learning. That is pretty much the achilles heal of the f119. You can make all sorts of changes to the induction and exhaust to get the engine to breathe better, but with out the tune for the modifications you are limited to the stock mapping. Even in pure stock engine form, a custom tune will wake up the performance a little bit.

 

Agreed great posts on this thread.
Might be nearer 10% drop for RWD in the 3.4 T case as there is no propshaft.
Similarly as the 8, QV & 3.2 have no 90dg diff this is nearer 5-6% loss.
Just my estimates not based on results, if anyone knows better do chip in

 

Actually there is a prop shaft, it runs from the back of the crank through the gearbox, through the center of the transfer shaft, then into the dual mass flywheel. The flywheel is connected to the transfer shaft, which gets the power to the pinion gear, and into the transmission via the ring gear. So I think it is in the -12% to -15% drive train loss range.

A couple of years ago, when I did the engine out major, I attempted to get my F119 on an engine dyno to dial in the best cam timing, but couldn't make it happen. I already have hub and wheel dyno numbers, so I would have been able to see for certain what the loss was. Maybe the next time the engine comes out I'll have better luck finding a shop that will accommodate me.

 

Ah ok, everyday is a school day, thanks.
Still id be optimistic the gubbins you described is all in a controlled rigid environment, and would not be as sappy as conventional front-engined-rear-drive-propshaft with universal joints at each end.

 

.

it is the universal joints that rob the power.

 

Thanks, Our preferred shop Competizione and Sport offers this although for some reason I never thought about tuning an unmodified engine.

I'll ask them about it although I do plan to eventually do cats, exhaust and possibly headers. Might consider porting and polishing too.

Dave

 

Get a baseline pull done first. Then put all the mods on (headers, cats, ported tb's & ported runners, better injectors) and redyno. THEN get it tuned by Competizione with the final dyno. Make sure you are using the same dyno each time you test it, that way you have consistency. Oh one more thing, find the gear ratio for your tranny, and dyno it in 4th. You'll need to look the bottom of the tranny case and get the number for the gearbox. Once you have that you can find out the proper ratio.

 

What is the difference in weight between the 3.4 & 3.2 (including gearbox)?
Also read somewhere that there is a big weight drop between the 8 and the QV - how come?