Why all the hate? | FerrariChat

Why all the hate?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by DaFerrari, Aug 15, 2016.

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  1. DaFerrari

    DaFerrari Rookie

    Jun 1, 2016
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    Here's Keith Martin's commentary about a '91 Mondial T that sold at auction recently for $32.4k "So, is there anyone out there honest enough to admit that they buy a Mondial only
    because it’s the cheapest way to be a Ferrari owner and look like a big shot? At least the
    consignor was honest enough to admit that he’s getting too old for it. Market-correct sale."

    "WTF?!" - me

    I'm proud to own a Mondial T Cab. It's a beautiful, fun and hugely underappreciated vehicle. What gives with the snobbery from SCM and some many others? Can't understand why people just hate the Mondial SO much other than the fact that it's easy to pile on? How many have actually driven one?

    My bet is that many of us who love these cars do own or could own vastly more *expensive* vehicles, but that really is beside the point. When I read things like this, it really makes me want to buy about a dozen Mondials and cancel my SCM subscription. Thinking about doing both.
     
  2. decardona

    decardona Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2005
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    Dennis Cardona
    He was the same critic of the 308/328 for the longest time. Until they became valuable. KM thinks an exotic that is not expensive , is not worth the time or effort. Love my Mondial.
     
  3. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2011
    17,389
    Lots of threads on this issue here. Welcome.
     
  4. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Vegas baby
    Keith Martin = JOKE

    Enjoy what you own and ignore the loud mouths who don't understand "jack"
     
  5. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #5 paulchua, Aug 15, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
    You've taken the words right out of my mouth. But then I realized I would regret it if these cars took off in value. I don't plan to sell my car, so the value is irrelevant to me. I drive my car so much that things will require replacement from normal wear and tear, I like being able to get my parts at just ridiculous price levels vs. stupid levels.

    Keith Martin's commentary echoes many others. It's a fact that many people hate these cars. When asked why they'll say they are ugly; the worst performing Ferrari of all time or read/told they are bad. It's also correct that most people can afford these cars, this makes the barrier to entry so low that you have folks that couldn't afford maintenance ruin many of these cars and then sell to an equally clueless new owner, only to perpetuate a downward cycle. I've seen it myself time and again.

    It is true that part of Ferrari ownership is the prestige and mystique that comes from "owning a Ferrari." The insecure part of me cringes every time that I think in the back of my mind I'm being 'judged' as a poseur with a 'fake/cheap' Ferrari. Now entering my 4th year of ownership and experiencing the ins and outs of the line, I can say with no doubt in my mind that the real "poseurs" are those that judge the car negatively. When I hear anything negative about the car, it's a litmus test to me how educated the commentator is. I've shown time and again, (outside subjective measures such as aesthetics,) there is simply no truth to the majority of the criticism.

    I've driven/owned everything from econoboxes to the supposedly "Ferrari Killer of the Epoch" the NSX (1st Gen) - was specifically designed to go up against the Tipo 119/348/t.

    So I think I can say with some reasonable comparisons that the Mondial is the best car I've ever owned. I'm glad people hate it - more power to them. After all, it was their hatred that allowed me to get the car so reasonably priced.

    For that, I can't thank naysayers enough, and I say more power to them!

    I really wish that people still hated lobsters* and felt they were only fit for criminals.....I would be in culinary heaven.
     
  6. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    just in case somebody didn't get my "lobster" reference...

    *Lobster did not achieve popularity until the mid-19th century. Prior to this time, lobster was considered a mark of poverty or as a food for indentured servants or lower members of society. Servants specified in employment agreements that they would not eat lobster more than twice per week.Lobster was also commonly served in prisons, much to the displeasure of inmates. Lobster was initially deemed worthy only of being used as fertilizer or fish bait.

    Damn, I wish I could get lobster 50 cents each today...
     
  7. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Vegas baby
    Here is a typical Keith Martin quote

    "Well you know these cars were so unloved for such a long time but the market seems to be catching on to them now".

    Translation: I still think they are crap but someone will buy this car.
     
  8. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    The Keith Martin comments are those of a poseur, says more about him than a typically very independent minded Mondial owner. The whole classic car market is frothy and being
    distorted by people who don't really care much about cars and driving them.

    The quirk of the classic market is many of the most "desirable" cars are hard core, racing oriented, and /or beautifully styled but are actually not that pleasant to drive for any length of time, as a result many end up being in collections settings. They have their role to play in track days, car shows and such. But the beauty of the Mondial is that it blends the exotic "cars as art" theme with a true usability, including serviceability. I am not sure what other exotics would fit this brief, maybe some of the Citroen era Maserati's? The once hugely unloved BMW M1 that has gone ballistic in value? A Lotus Eclat? The point is the Mondial is quite unique among the exotics.
     
  9. jjmalez

    jjmalez F1 Veteran
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    Apr 8, 2005
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    I have always loved the Mondial. However, I prefer the 3.2 over the t. The styling changes from the 3.2 to the t were disappointing. I loved the cheese grater side vents and the wheel arches on '86 -'88 cars. Plus I prefer manual steering on mid-engine cars. And the passive restraints from 1990 and beyond where not only awkward to use but just looked silly.

    Looks are subjective. I just loved the looks of the 3.2 Coupe' IMHO.


    Joe
     
  10. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #10 paulchua, Aug 16, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
    Great post moysiuan!

    KM I believe *did* actually own one in the past and he was less then pleased, so his comments do come with some legitimacy. I think his comments are within the context of pure collectability/profitability. From this angle, his comments make perfect sense. *Today*, the Mondial from this angle certainly fits the bill of a car that may 'never be loved' and forever fated to the basement of collectible appeal.

    Here's the kicker though. He of all people would know that the most profitable cars are those that were 'unloved' and for whatever strange reason skyrocket in value. My exhibit A is the Dino/Ferrari 308 GT4.

    We all know what happened to each and every Enzo era car (yes - even the 'hated' ones) for example - the 62 250 GT 'Breadwaggon' - the 64 GT 2+2 Series 1 (Enzo's personal favorite btw), and the 71' Daytona GTC/4.

    We all know here where all the Fiat Era cars went. The 308/328 and GT4 are no longer attainable for value prices. Even the 365/400/412 have been now called upstairs. Nevermind the BB, TR, 288, F40,F50.

    We all know that just SIX FIVE short years ago, you could take your pick of the litter for a 308 GT4 for no more then say 30K. Good luck finding a well sorted one today for less then 75K. My friend is considering selling his so he can put a down payment for a new house.

    Which leaves the 'lowly' Mondial as the lone car that remains. We all know it shares the same exact drive train as the vaunted 308/328, and many know the handling cred, and from a pure rarity factor - are more rare then the their 308/328 sisters.

    The double headlight 2+2 held the booby prize for a time, then pass it to the 308 GT4, the 308 GT4 is now certified collectible, and she passed that medal to the Mondial.

    Consider this, if you are a speculator, should you buy a brand new FF or California or a 25K Mondial? Which models will most likely depreciate/appreciate in the next 10 years?

    Will you be able to buy a Mondial for 25K in the year 2025 when Ferrari has been public for 10 years of Sergio's policy of pumping out more and more cars?

    The beauty here is for a enthusiast (read: drivers) - you win both ways. It stays or goes down in value - Awesome! I drive the darn thing - at least I don't have to pay 'stupid' prices for parts. If it goes up in value - yay - but I may not be able to drive the thing, probably move on to what ever model that has fully depreciated has taken the role of "cheapest" Ferrari.

    A pure speculator/collector at the very least should put their thinking cap on and see in plain sight the risk/reward potential...

    Many fear this has already begun.
     
  11. wrcimprezza

    wrcimprezza Karting

    Apr 26, 2011
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    To paulchua, What is a Ferrari 250 GT 'Breadwaggon'? What is a Ferrari Daytona GTC/4? I'm worried there are cars out there that I haven't heard of!


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  12. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #12 paulchua, Aug 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    haha

    the breadwaggon is what I think of when asked what is the most 'homely' Ferrari of all time.

    As for the Daytona GTC/4...it was unloved because it had 4 seats. (sound familiar) - take a look at values. The
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  13. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    #13 spicedriver, Aug 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    The GTC/4 was well loved...
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  14. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2011
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    We almost bought a gtc/4 instead of the mondial. The mondial fit our actual driving requirements better and when we do long trips with the three of us top down it is definately the better car for us.

    I should have bought the gtc/4 then though, sold it now and bought a nice mondial and a big garage. Hindsight.
     
  15. wrcimprezza

    wrcimprezza Karting

    Apr 26, 2011
    65
    Paulchua,

    The breadvan (not Breadwaggon") was a one off built for Count Volpi by former Ferrari employees outside of the factory; although based on a Ferrari 250 GT it is not a Ferrari model and was in no way sanctioned by the factory. The 365 GTC/4 is a different model to the 365 GTB/4; although neither was referred to by the factory as a Daytona it is only the GTB that has gained that name by the media of the day.

    You seem to have Ferrari dyslexia!


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  16. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    WTF? Ferrari Enzo Voted One of the Ugliest of All | WIRED
    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/why-the-ferrari-f50-is-the-worlds-ugliest-car/

    And don't forget the Drogo bodied Ferrari 250's, the factory called them "Anastasia" which was a derogatory expression for ugly women in local Italian slang...

    Looks like the market fell off the cliff after these ugly remarks...I am sure they are not great as daily drivers, the stereos are not very good, they are unreliable and hard to work on, with expensive parts...poor sad owners, what were they thinking. Let's invite them to join the Mondial board, maybe we can cheer them up.
     
  17. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    wrcimprezza, thanks for the education - (I bow my head in shame) I agree with you 100% that 3rd party one-offs should not count.

    As for the 365 GTC/4 - again, sorry for my ignorance here. I appreciate the correction on calling these Daytonas. You are 100% correct.

    I appreciate you setting me straight.
     
  18. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Thanks again wrcimprezza,

    I read up on the BreadVAN (not breadWAGGON) and since we're being absolutely technical about this - I found that Ferrari in 2010 officially gave it official Ferrari certification via Classiche program as an official Ferrari now.
     
  19. wrcimprezza

    wrcimprezza Karting

    Apr 26, 2011
    65
    From the Ferrari website-

    "In 2010, Ferrari awarded the Breadvan the Attestation for Vehicles of Historic Interest, a document issued for Ferraris which, although they do not comply with the strict Ferrari Authenticity Certification criteria, are deemed to be of historic interest because of their competition and/or recognised international show history. The Breadvan is probably the most iconic example of this kind of car."

    So not an official Ferrari according to the above. Where did you get the information about it being Classiche certified out of interest?


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  20. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #20 paulchua, Aug 17, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
    wrcimprezza,

    The Breadmobile I agree was modified to the point where it was not even close to production spec. The International Advisory Counsel for the Preservation of Ferrari Automobiles (IAC/PFA) also agreed with us in the past and did not allow the Breadcart to compete in "Ferrari" competitions such as the FOC and FCA concours in North America.

    The BreadCar of course could not pass the Ferrari Classiche initially, whose sole existence is to certify a car as 'geniune.' In 2009, Ferrari created a second classification for the program (the very one you quote) “Attestation for Vehicles of Historical Interest” - so the Attestation is an official Ferrari document that will prove the car to be a Ferrari. (That's not my quote)

    Now that the BreadCamper has received this certification, it can enter the most hallowed halls of the strictest "Ferrari Only" competition, even the one in this weeks Concours De Elegance.

    This is all academic of course and off topic. I concede that the Breadtruck was not a factory spec Ferrari, but the point of my post was never to claim the bonafide's of car A vs. car B. My thesis was simply this: Less desirable Ferrari, unpopular, or downright odd ones such as the 'infamous' (not my word) Breadtruck have often caught a second wind of popularity. Heaven forbids, I bring up a Mondirossa as supporting evidence.

    I appreciate the correction of the GTC; you are correct, never called the Daytona, only that its chassis is based on it...my point in bringing that model was not an exposition to bolster my model designation knowledge, but to give an example of how even a less popular 2+2 (vs say an actual Daytona) have gained appreciation today.

    Hope this provides context.

    Cheers
     
  21. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    wow! that's wild how things work out.
     
  22. SuperF

    SuperF Karting

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    +2


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