Bizzarrini Manta to Auction at Monterey | FerrariChat

Bizzarrini Manta to Auction at Monterey

Discussion in 'Other Italian' started by velocetwo, Jul 13, 2012.

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  1. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #1 velocetwo, Jul 13, 2012
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    Giurgiaro's first design after starting Ital Design the Bizzarrini Manta will auction at Gooding in Monterey. Est 1-1.5 Mil lot 25
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  2. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #2 James_Woods, Jul 13, 2012
    Not that it matters - but does it run & drive? What powertrain - Bora?
     
  3. prototypefan

    prototypefan Formula Junior

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    #3 prototypefan, Jul 13, 2012
    Way cool car from a way cool period.

    This car has genetics in spades.....started life as a P538 race car and has some history.....powered by a small block Chevy with really cool webers for induction.
    The color is just wild and fitting for the 60's. Tri-posto....oh ya.

    I'm not certain but it seems the car was originally configured with this side glass and then the car was shown as a silver car with front vent windows and I believe operational side glass. Now it is back to what I believe is non-operational side glass that swings into the interior when you open the door....kinda cumbersome and I would imagine it would be a total solarium in any kind of warm climate. But hey......who cares.....it's a show car and a stunning one at that.
     
  4. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #4 James_Woods, Jul 13, 2012
    It sure is good looking (in its own way, of course).
     
  5. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #5 velocetwo, Jul 15, 2012
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    I have crawled around this car a bit and one of the more interesting features is the slits in the front hood so you can see ahead, not to mention the three seats across like the Mclaren.

    Although the story has been floating around for many years, the Manta was not the ex LeMans race car. It was build out of pieces from a crashed P538. The frame of Manta is much different than a P538.

    It sports a 327 w crossover webers for a nice 400 HP.
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  6. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
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    #6 bitzman, Jul 19, 2012
    I know they sent out an announcement when they got the car
    on consignment but if they say the chassis number is 003 Bizzarrini P538 and
    you are alleging it has a different chassis number, then you are accusing Gooding & Co. of fraud. (I wish I had the release which probably states what they think the chassis number is...) After reading several stories about the car, I conclude it was a race
    car that DNF'd at LeMans, was sent to the U.S. , somehow "lost" at customs
    and sold in a port authority auction and then went to the Italian owner who sold it tot he Swede that first restored it.
     
  7. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #7 velocetwo, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
    Understand that I am not accusing anyone of anything I am only stating my opinion. The history of Bizzarrini cars is often more than complex. When you refer to the Manta being lost, that all took place after the Manta was constructed. This is the history prior to the construction as I understand it.


    Chassis 001 was built for Gammino to be used in the US Can Am series during testing it was crashed by Edgar Berney. At that time Bizzarrini was planning on making two more P538's . One for a test mule and the other for LeMans. Since Bizzarrini owed Gammino a car he then had to use one of his two other planned cars to fulfill the order. He stripped 001 of parts and used them on 003. 001 frame missing

    002 built for Gammino painted blue w yellow stripe lambo engined delivered.

    003 built for LeMans using parts off of 001 and round tubes for oil water cooling , this is the only P538 built in this manner. LeMans changed the rules and the car became obsolete. The parts were stripped off the old race car and given to Giugiaro for the Manta. Where did the chassis go?

    Today there is a P538 numbered 001 and it has round tube frame up front, just like 003, This is IMO the LeMans car.

    Bizzarrini has stated that the only car that had the round tubes up front was the leMans car, that would make the now numbered 001 P538 the LeMans frame.

    Could the Manta have a chassis number 003? Sure, just like the LeMans chassis is numbered 001

    This is documented by Jack Koobs De Hartog in his books

    hope that helps
     
  8. archivist

    archivist Rookie

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    #8 archivist, Jul 20, 2012
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  9. carvad

    carvad Formula Junior

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    #9 carvad, Jul 27, 2012
  10. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3

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    #10 thedoc, Jul 27, 2012
    history or not i loose a limb for this car however then shifting would be a beeeaaaach.

    Gary
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  11. 3500 GT

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    #11 3500 GT, Jul 28, 2012
    Regardless of cost, this car would be worth the $$$$$$$.


    Ciao and best!
     
  12. johnei

    johnei Formula 3
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    #12 johnei, Jul 30, 2012
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 Napolis, Jul 30, 2012
    Your post shows a very reckless disregard for the truth. The reasoned post on what the chassis # and history of this car may be is based on serious investigation and physical inspection and is FAR from "accusing Gooding & Co, of fraud." It is clearly expressing an opinion as permitted under the First Amendment, based on believed facts that the catalogue description is wrong. There's a HUGE difference.
     
  14. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #14 velocetwo, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
    Thank You and for the record, to my knowledge the only P538 to have a chassis number stamped by Bizzarrini was the Duke of D Aosta's car, this was done because the Duke wanted to drive it on the street and had the means to register it. Bizzarrini would scratch the numbers into the paint on his P538 cars to pass race inspections.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 Napolis, Jul 30, 2012
    Is the car drivable? Does it have AC? I saw it at Villa d'Este when we were there with Dino Competizione and it looked pretty cool but making show cars fully functional isn't for the faint of heart.
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 Napolis, Jul 30, 2012
    I passed this information on to Gooding and they are aware that their description may have an issue and will look into it.

    They thanked me for passing it on.

    Best
     
  17. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 staatsof, Jul 30, 2012
    Those first two shots remind me an awful lot of the Bora. Especially the round holes in the rockers just like the Bora has under it's rocker skins.

    This thing must be huge?
     
  18. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #18 velocetwo, Jul 30, 2012
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    In the 70's it was purchased by Giovanni Giordanegro and he made it into a drivable car. Not sure about the air, but knowing how well the the owner takes car of his other cars I would guess it does.


    I followed it into Concorso a few years ago
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  19. AlfettaGTV

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    #19 AlfettaGTV, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
    Totally agree.
    Bizzarrini had a very odd numbering system in his cars, but with P538 chassis he did even worse due the accident of first chassis.
    May be parts of that first wrecked chassis where used as starting basis for the Manta frame, but it had so different features some people think is a complete new built frame, so the logic points it was the Le Mans chassis.
     
  20. carvad

    carvad Formula Junior

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    #20 carvad, Jul 31, 2012
    Next images are showing the Mantra during construction and assemblage. You can see the tubular chassis. Looks like the P538 chassis or not? Also note the curved pipe at the rear end of the car (manta004l.img). Why is it necessary?

    http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4626/manta001.jpg

    http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/2968/manta006.jpg

    http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1328/manta004l.jpg
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 Napolis, Jul 31, 2012
    Cool Shot!
     
  22. Jota 5084

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    #22 Jota 5084, Jul 31, 2012
  23. 3500 GT

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    #23 3500 GT, Jul 31, 2012

    Thanks for posting these images. Interesting use of plywood for the buck.

    I always notice the guys/workers/builders shoes. Some wear no socks. Standing all day in those must have been quite fun!

    Ciao and best!
     
  24. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #24 velocetwo, Jul 31, 2012
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    LOL I notice the shoes too, here is a shot of Bizzarrini and his test driver, notice the leather shoes the test driver is wearing.
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  25. prototypefan

    prototypefan Formula Junior

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    #25 prototypefan, Jul 31, 2012
    Very cool photos.....thanks for posting!!

    There are many times I wish these cars could talk. I've always thought of the history of a car as a film, the car would not be the car without every negative in the film....you can not cut out any of the film and have the complete history.

    Without even discussing the inclusion of any of the P538 chassis or parts and LeMans history some of the photos of the car as the Manta pose questions. There are a ton of pictures of this car on google (Bizzarrini Manta).

    Period photos show the hoop at the rear of the car, which does not appear on the car today, is it still there?

    Period photos show bulges in the rear coach work in the approximate location of the hoop, there are also photos of the car in a silver color without these bulges and now they are back on the car. Why did this happen?

    The car appears to have originally been built with one piece side glass (which I think would not allow the windows to operate as the glass would run into the door hinges), then the car had a vent window installed (when presented in the silver color). Now the car has one piece glass again. Why did this happen?

    A minor detail are the front marker/signal lights. They appear in period just below the headlights and are no longer on the car.

    A good friend was at the LA show when this car was shown in period. He vividly remembers the car having a dirty engine in it and the car having 58 DCO weber carbs (he said he knows the carbs as they are the same ones as the ones on a 2 litre Abarth Simca that he restored), yet the exterior was that of a fresh show car. The car currently has DCOE carbs on it. Could it be that the P538 chassis that Bizzarrini provided had a race engine with the DCO carbs and it was installed?

    Is it possible that this car was only a pushmobile in period and was made functional by Giordanengo at a later date?

    Did anyone see the car run in period?

    Like Napolis, I also asked Gooding about the P538 chassis claim to see if the car currently has the P538-003 number in it anywhere (and subsequently found out through Jack Koobs de Hartog's book that the only car with a 538 VIN was the Duca d Aosta car). I also asked if the car has the 6901 Italdesign number on it and have not heard back form Gooding.

    It is a very interesting car to say the least, it would be nice to have answers to some of these questions or better yet see the whole film on this car without any missing negatives.
     
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