Pantera factory targas? Will they be the most valuable Panteras | FerrariChat

Pantera factory targas? Will they be the most valuable Panteras

Discussion in 'Other Italian' started by bitzman, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
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    I was talking to a Pantera expert who told me there was only 12 factory targas made, I think most by Pavesi.
    So considering they made over 6000 Panteras, that seems a tiny number so I would conclude that means they could be the most valuable, i.e. over $100,000 stock.
    But the same guy told me there's only one in the US as they didn't start making them until long after Ford and DeTomaso cut ties.
    I have long wondered why Pantera prices are stuck while Iso Grifos and even Intermeccanica Italias went up but I think the targas will be among the first DeTomaso Panteras to break the $100,000 barrier in dead stock form.

    The race cars of course will be worth more if they can be documented back to their racing days.
     
  2. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

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    You would have to do some SERIOUS reinforcement of the rocker areas to make a targa Pantera anything approaching stiff. Added weight = slower, does not handle as well.
     
  3. Mark Charlton

    Mark Charlton Karting

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    #3 Mark Charlton, Feb 26, 2013
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    True, about the handling comments, but for the same reason a Ghibli Spyder is more desirable than the coupe (to many, and value-wise for certainty) the extremely rare Pavesi Targa Panteras will always be the most desirable and rare form. I'd be happy just staring at it frankly.
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  4. DenisC

    DenisC Formula 3

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    Micheal's is a beauty. Here is how he described his car in another forum


     
  5. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

    Apr 3, 2007
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    Nice to look at but a crappy ride for sure. Made worse by the non-original after market wheels with thin side wall tires.

    However, it's definitley a pretty car...as are all panteras! :)
     
  6. DenisC

    DenisC Formula 3

    Oct 11, 2009
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    According to someone who actually owns one it IS stiffer than a standard Pantera, and as to wheels well that is all up to personal thing :)
     
  7. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

    Apr 3, 2007
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    LOL.. :)

    Next thing we'll hear are Mangusta owners refuting their car's weak chassis and unbalanced weight distribution of 32:68 which resulted in a lot of flexing, and unpredictable handling! jk :)

    However beautiful these cars are, we're talking crude "engineering" ....
    Morphodites ... put together with one purpose in mind--make money.
     
  8. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh man the frame rails in these things RUST like crazy. There's a lot of cars with roofs that are on the danger zone.

    Anyone thinking of buying a Pantera -- make sure you get it up on a lift and inspect the frame before you buy.
     
  9. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    A good mig welder and twelve hours should fix it.

    But lets face it a good percentage of the Pantera's have been bastardized. There hasn't been another Italian car so distorted and perverted than the Pantera and the resale values prove it. The Pantera is one of the top super cars ever built yet the resale values are some of the lowest due to the menbers quest to destroy the original design. Intemeccanica's, Iso's, Bizzarrini's, Apollo's, 427 Frua's, Facel Vega's, Monterverdi's Monica's, Cobra's. Tigers, all of the other hybrids have taken off in price, yet the Pantera it still sub 60 K.
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I like the look, maybe the wheels are a bit over done for my taste but here's my question?

    How in the hell does that windshield stay up?
     
  11. Mark Charlton

    Mark Charlton Karting

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    True statement, but one that can certainly be applied to pretty much any auto maker of the day. Even if the desire to make money was just to fund racing, or to crush a competitor, it's all the same.

    Good advice, but certainly NOT unique to Panteras as many cars of the 60s and 70s had inadequate rust protection. One reason that there are many (although I am surprised I haven't seen more) rusty Panteras is because they were "cheap" to buy and people actually drove them as their primary transportation. They have great handling, decent (for the time) ergonomics and a huge amount of trunk space. I know several people who have used their Panteras for 2 and 3 week long driving holidays.

    This gets debated all the time. We all know there are several key boxes that need to be checked to get that magic "highly valuable" outcome: Beauty, Heritage, Racing results, Features, Performance, Status (originally) and of course rarity.

    Because the Pantera was always presented as an "affordable" sports exotic, it never garnered the respect of the other cars mentioned—most of which were produced in extremely low volumes. At a volume produced of over 7,000 in total, a Pantera isn't really "rare" (certainly not as compared to many of the cars listed above). It had an "OK" but brief racing heritage which has resulted in values of the few original Group 4 race cars being many multiples higher than that of a "regular" Pantera. And certainly the fact that many owners have customized Panteras to their own taste has meant the cars are hard to evaluate and compare. The affordability and ease of maintenance/low cost has made this possible and that is why there are still a lot of Panteras around these days.

    However, all that said, I do see gradual increases in prices for truly original, rust-free and un-molested Panteras. Mostly likely because they are now a very limited pool of cars. The same is true for the later GT5-S and specials. Yes, they are moving slower than the market, but they are moving. Look at the rises in Mangusta prices and the only two significant differences between a Pantera and a Mangusta are that the Mangusta was never presented as a "cheap alternative", and there were only 401 built (status and exclusivity). Try getting a nice one for under $100K now. Several have sold around $200K.

    Would I suggest buying a Pantera as an investment? No. Not unless you buy an all-original car, or one of the GT5-S or 200/Si cars, or one of the few "specials". Would I suggest buying one because you want an affordable exotic that can be maintained on a "normal" budget and still provide astounding performance and fun for value. Yes.

    Mark
     
  12. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    #12 lashss, Mar 2, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
    I'm new to the Detomaso world having been (and still) a Ferrari and Lambo guy.

    The Pantera is exceptional.

    It has an expertly designed Dallara chassis, a beautiful Tjaarda penned Ghia body initially built at Vignale, a ZF gearbox that won Le Mans, magnesium wheels, a reliable motor and much more.

    As far as engineering goes…it is at the highest level imaginable. Dallara is a genius and anything he touches is art. He’s developed Ferrari F1 chassis, the 333SP, numerous other open wheel champions, the BMW M1, Countach, Bora and other similar exotics.

    Dallara & Ferrari - by Tony Cotton - Ferrari Happenings - Ferrari Owners' Club

    There is race history for the Pantera and the Detomaso marque as well. Of course, next to Ferrari there isn’t much that is going to compare for competition results, but it is there.

    Brian Redman and Piers Courage raced for their F1 team during its brief existence.

    Porsche lobbied successfully to have the Pantera reclassed due to its enormous potential for a class win against their 911s. They would’ve done very well at Le Mans if it wasn’t for this political move directly targeted at Detomaso.

    Later, the Pantera even beat the F40 in competition...not bad.

    WSRP | Race history of De Tomaso Pantera

    The ADA Pantera VIN 9628

    All the history of poor reliability and lack of development are, in 2013, irrelevant having been solved a long time ago. Much was due to Ford cost saving changes as the cars came over from Italy near the start of production. Ford made a lot of critical cuts...vented to solid rotors, leather to plastic seats, Momo Prototipo to Capri steering wheel, raised ride height, and a LOT of other items.

    Interestingly, cars delivered to other markets outside North America were prepped by the Detomaso factory. These were original spec cars without the above mentioned changes.

    The US magazines didn’t like the US spec (altered) cars as period tests showed. The non-US press LOVED the Euro spec car…having routinely called it a Countach Killer and other flattering titles. I have a collection of road tests from the 70s-80s and the disparity between the press opinion of the US vs Euro spec cars is unbelievable. A US magazine declared it unfinished and 5 pages later, a UK or Aussie rag hailed it as excellent.

    Thankfully, the aftermarket and enthusiastic owners fixed the problems on the US cars early on.

    Ford pulled their investment out in 1974 and imports stopped. Detomaso could not sell the car in the US but owned rights everywhere else. Detomaso ceased operation in the factory Ford funded and went back to handbuilt construction. The cars produced after 1975 are without any Ford involvement. Like the earlier Euro spec machines, they are higher spec and excellent to drive.

    My GT5-S is nothing short of amazing. The chassis and brakes are tremendous. There is ample power and potential for much more if needed. The car reminds me of my old DD Countach QV, another famous Dallara product. When setup properly, that car was an open road monster. The Pantera is, not surprisingly, the same. In fact, these two cars share so much in their development.

    The construction is 100% Italian coachbuilder quality (having moved from Vignale to Maggiora and then Embo) and comparable to Maserati, Lambo and Ferrari of the period. The exception would be the Testarossa which was done on a different line at Pininfarina with the Cadillac Allante and Laforza Magnum. It is better built but also MUCH heavier.

    With all the interest in collectible cars, the market is seeing these cars for what they are. Stock or nearly stock Mangusta and Pantera have increased in value over recent years.

    I was looking at two excellent pre L (71-72) examples in 2006 for $25k. Now, those same cars would be $60k+. Factory widebody GT5 and GT5-S (9xxx serial number and later) cars were $45-50k back then and now much, much higher.

    Auction results and data for 1990 DeTomaso Pantera GT5-S | Conceptcarz.com

    DeTomaso Pantera GT5-S For Sale

    1993 De Tomaso Pantera GT5 S for sale on ClassicCarsGlobal.com

    Back to the initial question…

    Will the Pantera Targa model be the first valued at over $100k?

    No…that happened a few years ago.

    Will they be the most valued of all Detomasos?

    Not likely. The Mangusta, Vallelunga and factory racers (Pantera GT variants and formula cars) are already way, way beyond that $100k mark. This is not to mention the rare GT5, GT5-S, Si, and other 9xxx series cars.

    Detomaso is a great marque and possible the last to be fully appreciated from the “Golden Era”.

    LS
     
  13. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

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    #13 Pantera GT5S, Mar 3, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
    Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but the press killed the Pantera from day one. Serious quality issues with the early cars. Along with the single most reason I hear why these cars aren't respected...lack of pedigree. As I mentioned previously, the Pantera is a known morphodite cobbled together --the same holds true for later cars. The lack of factory records for FORD era cars also contribute to the mutt factor.

    However, I happen to celebrate that each Pantera is unique and modified. Never to be accepted in the Ferrari concours world. For the majority of Pantera owners that's not a problem. Most don't own the car for their investment value. Instead, most admire and celebrate the manner in which other owners and vendors have taken a flawed product, modified it, and finished what the factory was never able to do. They're the reason Pantera ownership thrives today.

    At a not so recent car show I saw tons of Panteras. Each one unique. Everything under the sun. Just like their owners. My 5-S is stock...however, I celebrate the individualness of these cars. This is what makes Pantera ownership so different from owning a Ferrari.. This is what's so cool about these cars. Just my opinion! :)
     
  14. Mang

    Mang F1 Veteran
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    #14 Mang, Mar 3, 2013
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    I'm with ya, strolling concorso and seeing 598 Ferrari 308/328's all the same except for color - yawn :D

    ...but strolling through Pantera examples is an adventure in variety!
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  15. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    You are right the *US* press killed the *US Spec* Pantera which was bad for future value potential. And it wasn't all incompetence but also an inferior product that they were testing.

    The rest of the world got the real car, we didn't...

    As a result, our perception of the Pantera has been tainted by those initial tests and the poorly finished US cars. Luckily, older Pantera enthusiasts have corrected the problems caused by Ford and now we are enjoying trouble free US cars.

    The rest of the world got the real car and as a result, values and respect have increased following the recent trends. The Europeans are paying the big bucks already for Detomaso cars. They are also in tune with the racing history of the cars and the other models from Detomaso.

    I cannot tell you how many people at cruise nights tell me that they love Ford Panteras. It is not a Ford. That misinformation and old data is the hurdle. That's what has to change before values can increase here. The rest of the world knows they were built in Italy, raced at Le Mans, in GT racing and F1. Clay Regazzoni and Mike Parkes were famous Detomaso racers in period. Also, Jackie Stewart drove one in period and tested for the Detomaso F1 team.

    Does the collector car world know this?

    Not in the USA.

    We remember cooling problems on clogged American roads, tricky handling from altered ride height and crappy Goodyear Arrivas. The rest of the world was enjoying low, Dallara prescribed ride height, excellent vented disc brakes and a Momo prototipo steering wheel.

    My GT5-S is very near stock and I don't see any engineering deficiencies that are unusual compared to any other small, hand built Italian car of the era. It is similar to a Countach, early 308 or BB. In fact, many of the parts on these cars are the same...

    Now if I compared it to a Mustang or a Z06, I would have to adjust that scale of reference. But, it is Italian exotic and not a Mustang, so it needs to be measured with other low volume Italian exotics.

    Mine doesn't even have a spec of rust anywhere...frame rails, engine bay, rockers, door bottoms, windshield frame, door hinges, etc. I do have proof that a guy named Rusty has driven it once before though.

    One interesting thing I have noticed is that Panteras seemed to have been used as daily transportation in all types of weather. They were cheap when new and thus were treated like regular cars. I have seen many parked outside, under tarps, car ports,etc. I have never seen even a 308 or Mondial parked outside for any length of time. Surely this level of care has to affect reputation, condition and repairs needed for future purchasers. If a Countach was parked outside or driven in rain and/or salt it would be considered a rust bucket. But, as we know, this doesn't happen very often.

    The era of the Pantera being known for rust, overheating or other development problems is over now that they are increasing in value and being treated like Italian exotics.

    We now need to remind the world about the pedigree, however much there is...
     
  16. DenisC

    DenisC Formula 3

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    #16 DenisC, Mar 3, 2013
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    Lash drove his GT5S to the Montreal GP last summer.

    Photo by MarkCharlton
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  17. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    #17 velocetwo, Mar 3, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
    It wasn't the press that killed the Pantera prices, as a example almost every other hybrid has increased in price. Some had terrible press reports. it's the fact that the DeTomaso clubs and members promoted and supported the hot rod upgrading as opposed to the originality of the cars. Are there any european vintage car clubs that support this type of thing? I do't think so. What it does is lump DeTomaso owners in with hot rod guys, this in turn lumps them into the same down turn in appreciation. You made your own bed.

    IMO your all still in denial. Ay least the Mangusta guys seem to understand.
     
  18. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

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    Beautiful car! Is that an Amerisport?
     
  19. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

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    Are you not listening? Most don't own the car for their investment value!

    lol
     
  20. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Yes, from a value/respect/acceptance in the Italian exotic world, hot rodding is not ideal. It was result of the initial low cost and less than ideal US spec models needing upgrades.

    "Are there any european vintage car clubs that support this type of thing? "

    Not to the same extent. The Detomaso organizations abroad don't appear to either.

    " What it does is lump DeTomaso owners in with hot rod guys, this in turn lumps them into the same down turn in appreciation. You made your own bed."

    In the USA, yes.

    Detomaso has a different image and reputation abroad. Foreign investors/collectors are already buying the stock Detomaso cars here and shipping them back to Europe.

    LS
     
  21. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Thanks...

    It was...less and less each day!

    LS
     
  22. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

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    I live in Europe and can tell you the primary attraction is monetary!

    The EURO rules!!!!

    <...today...>
     
  23. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Absolutely, but no one will buy a car they don't want just because it's a good deal.

    Please post up a pic of yours...what color? I haven't seen mine in months (winter storage) and am really missing it. The pic above was from the Canadian GP 2012.

    LS
     
  24. Pantera GT5S

    Pantera GT5S Rookie

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    #24 Pantera GT5S, Mar 4, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013

    Once an Amerisport always an Amerisport. I.E. not factory. A notch above GT-5S copies....however, SEVERAL notches below the original de Tomaso factory cars.

    I won't pay extra for a 5-S produced in Ohio that's is NOT factory produced! If you care of such nonsense! :) I refuse to pay extra! for this!
     
  25. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    #25 lashss, Mar 4, 2013
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    All GT5-S cars were made in Italy. The Amerisport "production" was a clever business arrangement to get the cars into the country. I'm not downplaying what they accomplished since it was good for all enthusiasts to get these cars legally into the country.

    Only bumpers, the wing and some window trim were added when being imported. They all are GT5-S models with factory Detomaso VIN numbers.

    The later factory built widebody cars had VINs in the 9xxx range.

    Have you closely inspected one? If not, I can send hi res pics of mine if you're interested. Actually a close inspection isn't really needed...

    I'm not even sure how anyone could even believe that anything was "produced" in Ohio after five minutes of inspection.

    There was more modification done to the Countach and BB when they were grey market imported.

    The GT5-S that Amerisport imported are no different.

    The current market has known this for years and recent auction and sales prices are the result, so it's not really an opinion.

    LS
     

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