What percentage of Pantera's are still stock | FerrariChat

What percentage of Pantera's are still stock

Discussion in 'Other Italian' started by proof69, Aug 23, 2015.

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  1. proof69

    proof69 Formula 3

    Sep 14, 2014
    1,003
    i had 2 friends that had Pantera's in the 90's and both were heavily modified. When I went to Pantera's meets 50 percent of the cars were modded. And this was in the 90's. I wonder how many stock Pantera's are left?
     
  2. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    Very few. Even "stock" cars often have some much needed changes to cooling or electrical systems. Incidentally none of this affects value IMO and I would personally not want an all original stock Pantera, at least not in Texas. But I also don't like the excessively modified versions especially those that got the full 80's era treatment.
     
  3. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
    12,536
    Left Coast
    From what I have read the early cars had issues then the Factory addressed the issues and owners of later cars have almost no issues, that said many got modified because of the stigma. I would be interesting to hear from some knowledgeable club members on what percentage they think are stock.
     
  4. 575 Maranello

    575 Maranello Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2013
    335
    So Cal
    I think it depends on what one would consider "stock". I personally would not have a very functional car if it were exactly as it left the Lincoln Mercury dealer when it was new. Everyone mentions the cooling system for a good reason. It needs help and once resolving it the car can be driven virtually anywhere without problems.

    The A/C system is another. The R12 system with the big heavy power robbing compressor is another problem. Converting to a Sanden rotary compressor and R134 greatly increases its functionality.

    The electric windows are a problem. The plastic gears don't last long. Even when replaced with the brass gear they lift very slowly. Its painful for me to look at. Installing a Taurus lift motor completely solves this problem.

    The 15" wheels are correct but its hard to find the proper tires today. Moving up to a 17" wheel fixes this too.

    See where I am going with this. All of the above mods are not visible (except for the wheels) but greatly improve the functioning of the car. There are many more examples but my fingers are getting tired.

    I think finding a car that does not have all the "fixes" installed is hard to find but more importantly is why would one not want to do this unless its a garage trophy intended only to be looked at. Just my 2 cents.
     
  5. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
    12,536
    Left Coast
    Not really , Iso's use the same window gears and yes they get old and crack, but they work a long time before they crack.

    Why change rims? Campagnolo Electron were and still are great rims that not only look good they are also very light and strong. Sure there aren't ten tire manufactures to choose from but thats part of owning a old Italian classic.

    Who really cares if you save a few pounds for a compressor or it robs a HP or two the old units are original and work great.

    All of the other marques seem to understand what original is and why it's cool.
     
  6. rb-dino

    rb-dino Rookie

    Feb 28, 2011
    11
    In response to the OP, not many. I would guess (and it is only a guess) there are a handful of truly "original" cars left (less than 100, probably closer to a few dozen) that are running driving cars. I have only seen 2 truly original Pantera cars for sale in the last 8 years relative to the hundreds of modified ones I have seen. I am talking no modifications other than service maintenance using original unmodified parts. As pointed out above, for some reason Pantera owners more than any other group seems to like to modify and at times heavily modify their cars to "improve them". I agreed with velocetwo, all older Italian cars are quirky and have limitations. That is what I/we enjoy about them. Unmodified Panteras drive, handle, stay cool and in general do just fine with the caveat they are not being tracked or in extreme use or conditions, again which would be true for all older Italian cars.

    Just my 2 cents.

    RB
     
  7. kens

    kens Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 25, 2006
    1,203
    Decades ago, I joking/laughing about how the last stock Pantera had disappeared decades earlier.
     
  8. Pantera1523

    Pantera1523 Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2004
    432
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Scott Carpenter
    I'd have to say any truly unmodified Pantera is not one that has been driven since the '70s or '80s. I have a 1971 Pantera and it has been lightly modified but it is definitely not completely stock.

    The only outward appearance are new wheels.. but I went with the Pantera East Campy clones in 16" and 17" to allow for a little more modern rubber. I still have the originals...

    The only other mods to mine are updated radiator, updated A/C compressor, Hall big bore exhaust and a 377 stroker kit. The original cracked and when someone tried to repair it, it was beyond usable.

    I've definitely seen some pretty outlandish mods over the years.
     
  9. jimmym

    jimmym Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2008
    1,967
    Northeast U.S.
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I agree with Keith on this. There probably aren't too many totally original cars out there. Ford did technical service bulletins to address some of the problems with these cars during the production run, so if these updates were performed and only these updates than I would still classify that as a totally original car. Everything else would be modified. Fortunately some modifications do not seem to effect the value of these cars. :)
     
  10. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,069
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    Jim
    I think if you exclude wheels/tires and things you have to crawl around on the ground with a flashlight and mirror to see, a lot of Panteras are probably still stock. You don't see them at shows because the owners who like to show are the ones who like to modify.

    My car has a better radiator core installed in the same housing and better fans mounted in front of it. I still have the 15" Campys with their new-looking but ancient Pirelli tires so I could switch it back to stock appearance in half an hour.

    If you include cars that only an expert would know have been changed, I think a lot of cars are still stock.
     
  11. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

    Nov 26, 2003
    2,564
    DC
    Full Name:
    LSJ
    How many are stock?

    Not enough.

    The stock cars are great when they are *used like a 70s-80s Italian exotic*.

    They are no different from any of the 70s-80s Italian cars I've owned and better than a lot of them.

    Also remember that Ford "dumbed" down the car significantly from factory Detomaso spec for importation into North America. They wanted to keep the car at a low price and thus cut some very important items that gave the car a poor reputation on this continent. Also, due to the lower price point, the car was used in an incorrect manner (ie under 80mph, in rain or salt and on bumpy roads). Elsewhere, the car was lauded and praised as the Detomaso factory was preparing them. Check out the period UK and Australian road tests. If you revert the car back to ROW spec (better breathing engine, lower ride height, better tires, etc.) it is great.

    So, what is stock? North American spec or ROW spec?

    Either way, stock can be very, very good when *used like a 70s-80s Italian exotic*.

    Some, not all, of the longtime owners are to blame. They either hate their car secretly or are bored...or both. I've heard dozens of owners describe, with great pride and satisfaction, all the extensive mods they've done to the cooling system. At the very end of the explanation most will admit that their car never overheated to begin with.

    I've heard about every possible wheel upgrade needed for the Pantera. Does everyone know that there are at least 5-6 different, brand new tires available in 15" sizes? These are modern rubber compounds which will shame most pedestrian street tires. Besides, why would anyone replace a set of beautiful Mg Campys with 18" boat anchors?

    I've owned a few stock examples and have driven many more. When they are setup properly, they are exceptional. The ones I've owned have run rings around their peers from other Italian manufacturers.

    They require the same maintenance and updates that any old Italian car would need. The engine makes things a bit simpler given its design.

    The Detomaso community is great and very resourceful. I enjoy the club events and technical expertise available. I do also believe that all owners should enjoy their own car in whatever manner they deem fit.

    The cars are, however, great in stock configuration when maintained, setup *and* driven properly.

    LS
     
  12. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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  13. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Bob
    Like which 15" tires?
     
  14. Pantera1523

    Pantera1523 Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2004
    432
    Virginia
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    Scott Carpenter
    Hey Lashdeep,

    Two reasons I installed new wheels... At the time there were not any decent 15" tires, and I really like the look of my 335s on the back. The other reason is the original Campys are made of Magnesium and get brittle over time. So they need to be heat cycled. Several years ago on the DeTomaso email list, Mike Drew had a decent write up on how to do it in an oven but I doubt my wife would go for me cooking my wheels in her oven. :)

    I do agree with what you said about owners who over mod though. Hopefully with the renewed interest more cars will be returned to at close to stock as possible.
     
  15. Mark Charlton

    Mark Charlton Karting

    Jul 17, 2006
    137
    Ottawa, ON
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    Mark
    #15 Mark Charlton, Sep 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have both a "fairly stock" Pantera and a highly modified (under the skin) one. In actuality the stock car is MUCH nicer to drive, IMHO. It rides and handles beautifully, is quieter and, over the 10+ years I've owned it, has been exceptionally reliable — having never once stranded me (although neither has the other). It has a few cosmetic changes (steering wheel, valve covers, Euro tail light lenses) and a few minor "upgrades" (an aluminum rad, braided stainless brake flex lines, a higher-flow water pump, better intake and carb etc.) but is to most eyes a very stock appearing car. I have all the old original parts but would never even consider putting them all back on as long as I continue to DRIVE the car. The modified car is faster, more responsive, MUCH louder and more aggressive. Different days require different cars.

    I think what separates some Pantera "collectors" from most Pantera owners is the road.

    As for suitable tires, those of us who have searched long and hard for decent correctly-sized tires for the 8 and 10" wide Campagnolo wheels know how hard it is to find a matched set (225/50-15 and 295/50-15) from one manufacturer. Lots of options used to exist and now none do — unless, like me, you stumble upon a new set of recently-discontinued tires.

    As for how many "original" Panteras still exist, I'd say a probably more than did a few years ago as more guys convert their cars back to original for better sale results. I love them both.

    Mark
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  16. Pantera1523

    Pantera1523 Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2004
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    Scott Carpenter
    Mark,

    Both of your cars look outstanding! Great examples of stock (at least in appearance) and tastefully modified.

    Thanks for sharing!
     
  17. DeTomaso

    DeTomaso Rookie

    May 30, 2008
    29
    Broomfield
    I am not trying to stir the pot so to speak here but at what point of upgrade does the car become overly modified? Most things I have read recently refer to wide flares on the fenders and hideous wings, etc. so I will ask about appearance mods. If I recall correctly Mr. De Tomaso installed wide flares on the Group 4 racing cars at the factory. You could order the car that way in later years if you wanted. He was planning a road going version, the GT4 that was to be released using the same wide fender flares. The GTS cars had a slightly flared fender and the later GT5 cars had flares, wings, rocker flares and large front spoilers all from the factory. Wouldn't they be considered "original"? The GT5S cars were flared in a beautiful and tasteful way but were, nonetheless flared.
    So my question is at what point do the mods become too much? Are we talking strictly appearance mods or is it really a discussion about the way a particular came from the factory?
    I own two Panteras and I will say that I am not the type of person that would ever be able to bring myself to take a cutting tool to an original car. I just don't have it in me personally.
    Having said that, I can't help but like the look of the original Group 4 flared cars. I bought one car that has racing history from the 70s and was made to look like a group 4 some time in the 70s. It is all steel and restored to what I consider a tasteful level adhering to the factory group 4 look and paint scheme but done in steel as opposed to fiberglass.
     
  18. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
    12,536
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    Just because a car is raced with flares doesn't mean owners should modify their cars? IMO just this is the logic that most outsiders question. Arn't 15" Dunlop tires still available?
     
  19. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    old campy's are a liability. light and strong at one time but they dont age well. i cant say how many ive seen that weren’t in accidents that have stress cracks, corroded or simply porous to a point they will leak air if sitting too long. ive seen catastrophic failures at the track with these old crusty things were the whole hub face sheard off. people who drive spirtly or vintage race, often have them replaced for good reason.

    on the flip side...i agree, original is cool! but my pantera wheels will be used for my water hose
     
  20. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
    12,536
    Left Coast
    #20 velocetwo, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Alfa, Lancia and Fiat all seem to be fine. Iso Bizzarrini were the leaders in wide 9" rims, the Iso Grifo was available in a larger displacement than the Pantera at 7 litres and I have never heard of a 7 litre owner having any issues, so it's not about HP. Lamborghini and Ferrari use them I don't hear any problems from them either.

    Campagnolo rims were a special material called Elektron it was a blend of aluminum and magnesium this made them stronger than magnesium rims. This material was also used in satellites. How many DeTomaso rim failures have you heard of on street cars?
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  21. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

    Nov 26, 2003
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    #21 lashss, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
    Bob, there is a POCA email list that has discussed all of the current 15" tire offerings. You can use a google search to find all of the tire discussions from the archives. It is a nice resource for exchanging Detomaso related information.

    Michelin TB15
    Michelin TB5R
    Michelin TB5F
    Avon xxx
    Pirelli P7 Corsa Classic

    And there are more from Hoosier, Yokohama (limited production) and others...

    Campy Mg wheels becoming brittle? It is rare to hear of one that was *properly stored, maintained and used* failing. I've heard this fear about the phenomenon that only exists in the Pantera world yet is missing from any other vehicle using Campagnolo Mg wheels.

    Is it possible? Yes

    Has it ever happened? Yes

    Can you die every time you ride a bicycle? Yes

    If you hear hoofs coming down the street, could it be a zebra? Possibly

    What is likely?

    Is every Miura or Ghibli owner going to lose a wheel on their next drive? What about every vintage Ferrari driver? Should all 308s be parked until aftermarket wheels are installed immediately?

    Putting aftermarket wheels on a Pantera is a personal choice but PLEASE just admit the real reason. The reason is because the owner wants them and not due to any real practical problem with the stock wheels *or* the availability of suitable tires.

    LS
     
  22. 575 Maranello

    575 Maranello Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2013
    335
    So Cal
    The stock wheels for a US Pantera 7" front and 8" rears look silly IMO. They need to sit more flush with the fender in both front and rear. The 10" rears come pretty close but their current cost is prohibitive. This is one of the reasons I changed my wheels. Another is the fact that from the factory the rear wheels well have lots of room to install wider tires. Why stick with skinny when one can use 11" wheels and 335's
     
  23. pantera1973

    pantera1973 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2010
    29
    Los Gatos, CA
    #23 pantera1973, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
    Great list.

    Not to change the subject, but here are a few more 15" tires for the Pantera that just about any local tire store carries or can quickly get in sizes 215/60-15 (front 7" rim) and 255/60-15 (Rear 8" rim). These tires are also available in 295/50-15 for the 10" Rear rim.

    Cooper Cobra GT
    BF Goodrich Radial T/A
    Mickey Thompson Sportsman
    HANKOOK VENTUS H101 ( 255/60-15 not available, only 295/50-15 for rear and 215/60-15 front)

    Here are some "lower end" ones that I wouldn't personally put on a Pantera, but if one was on an extended road trip and ripped a sidewall they are cheap ($85-$100), readily available, and more than capable of getting you home:

    Mastercraft Avenger GT
    Nankang SP-7
    Hercules H/P 4000
    Cordovan Grand Prix Performance G/T
    MultiMile Grand Am Radial G/TS
    TURBO TECH GT Radial

    I'd say there are darned few totally 100% stock Panteras around, maybe 5% or so.

    Mine, like a lot of others I suspect, has received minor upgrades as needed over the years but is about 95% stock/original. When the plastic power window gear on my drivers side finally cracked after 40 years of use I replaced it with a brass one; it doesn't make sense to put a gear made out of inferior material back in while it is all apart. I replaced my passenger sides gear as a preventive measure at the same time.

    I learned a long time ago that preventive maintenance pays off big time. I change ALL fluids annually. When my original clutch master cylinder started leaking (it made it 38 years) I sent it, along with my brake master and clutch slave even though they were still doing fine, to a specialty company and had them press in bronze linings thus forever eliminating any future pitting of the bores. My 42 year old factory water pump has never been off the engine and the original radiator has never been removed from the car since it was put in at the factory in January 1973. In triple digit temperatures with the A/C on max and in stop & go traffic the car runs nice & cool. The engine has never missed a beat & it's never been out of the car. The cars original paint still has a great shine.

    When I got the car 29 years ago I made the following changes for easier maintenance, better driveability, and yes perhaps a bit more power ;-)

    Edelbrock Performer Intake, Holley 650 DP, Mallory Unilite Distributor, MSD 6A, Open Element Aircleaner, 8MM wires, DeTomaso Cast Valvecovers.

    Nothing that I can't change back in an afternoon.

    I suspect that there are still quite a few Panteras out there similar to mine, especially the later "L" models that received the needed upgrades/updates while they were being manufactured at the factory; very lightly modified & easily returned back to stock in a day or two.
     
  24. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    #24 hyenahf, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
    funny sounds like you been around these cars for many years and you have never seen a campy fail? hell even the bicycle parts are failing now under one human power. i know a fellow with a lp400 that had to have its wheels replaces since the wheels were crumbling. no his car wasnt submerged in saltwater

    i first met al consentino about 35 years ago who was the north america distributor of campagnolo so elektron im familiar with. all the technical jargon was well documented in his various schizophrenic faza catalog bibles. no disrespect Al RIP....love you.

    when the compagnolo factory burnt down in the 80's, tecnomagesio acquired the company. i also knew the distributor for the tecnomagesio for north america in the 90's. the catalog list i received from him showed a updated mg low pressure casting process that address many of the issues associated with the aging campy wheels. for a time if u had a P4 or a stratos, they would custom cast a set a wheels for you replacing the originals. they had the campys molds though some were modified or improved on the back side ribbing for increase strength. some had minor alterations on the face of the wheel but only someone well verse can spot the difference. you anal retentive detomaso, abarth, lancia, alfa, porsche, lambo types should know what im talking about.. :)

    tecnomagesio has sold the trade name to the street wheels to conglomerate MIM which supplies high volume places like tire rack etc which arent anything like the real campys/tecno's.

    i believe they did retain the race program to outfit spec racers, endurance and F3 type. so if anyone comes across a tecno porsche cup wheel please let me know! they dont cast the classic campys no more. some of the molds have appeared here and there.

    btw the once seemingly invincible forged fuchs are now cracking and shearing off too! age is a *****.

    my 2cens
     
  25. Pantera1523

    Pantera1523 Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2004
    432
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Scott Carpenter
    I absolutely agree... I've had my 1971 Pantera for 15 years. It came to me with the original 7" front and 8" rears. When it was time to replace the tires there simply were not the options there are today in 15" performance tires. So I did as many others were doing and went with the Campy replicas and put nice 17" 355s on the rear. At the time it was more necessity than choice. Though I guess I could have put on a set of nice S rated tires and kept it totally stock... ;)

    Now it has gotten hard to find matching 16" and 17" replacements again so I guess I will be wheel shopping soon. There is no way am I putting 215/70 15" tires back on the rear. :)
     

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