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  #21  
Old 03-05-2013, 01:35 PM
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Wow. This car sounds amazingly fast around a track. Torque-vectoring, rear-steer, PDK, 470HP, 3200 lbs (is that up from 997 GT3?). 9000 RPM! Love it!

This car will get serious attention from me for the role that CS and Scud fill of "back road fun drive and occasional track day car".
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2013, 02:44 PM
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Too bad, yes it will be fatser round a track, but less fun and engaging to drive. Basicaly a porche GTR. Methinks they have lost the plot. there were always other cars thatw ere objectively faster than a GT3 and yet the GT3 was sold out, that should have told porche that these cars were valued for subjective performance as well as objective numbers.

They are denuding the GT3 franchise just as BMNW did to the M franchise, seriously today who needs a M5. Between its numb electric steering, laggy turbo motor, and auot box what seperates a M% from a AMG merc or the new Audi Rs7 both of which are aguably as good or better.

What now seperates a GT3 from a GTR.

We want sportscars, not just performance cars.
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  #23  
Old 03-05-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ScuderiaWithStickPlease View Post
Been counting the seconds for that one, Mr Mayor?

More like Bean counting.
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  #24  
Old 03-05-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by boxerman View Post
...We want sportscars, not just performance cars.
I think the "we" is now a distinct minority. Kind of like the "we want carbs" crowd.
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  #25  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxerman View Post
What now seperates a GT3 from a GTR.
I understand where you are coming from with this but there is a lot of difference between a GTR and a GT3 that keep the GT3 as far more of a drivers car:

- Normally aspirated vs. turbo
- 9000rpm!
- A torque peak on the GT3 that is higher than the redline on the GTR (kidding, but close!)
- Rear wheel drive only
- About 600+ lbs!

So, "no" I don't think this latest GT3 will drive similar to a GTR. That said, I do agree that the analog cars with high driver input and that mysterious thing called "feel" and "engagement" are going the way of the dodo bird. The 458, to use a Ferrari example, is not to my liking for the same reasons (as compared to a Scud or CS for example, which reminds me the Scud has an F1 transmission and an e-diff - two recent additions to the GT3 - and it screams of "feel" and "engagement" and "analog" despite the technology...). But, I still admire the 458 for what it is and what it is capable of. Same with the 991 GT3...
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  #26  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:20 PM
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Amongst DRIVERS the WE is not a minority. We can see that BMW made a stick M5 to satisfy that minority. My local Fcar dealer has told me of any number of 458 sales that did not take place because its flappy paddle only. We know a 430 with stick fetches a 15% premium.

As soon as FI could funtion with the same or better performance than carb there was no issue. The first FI cars had flat cams compred to their carb models because the bosch unit could not take high lift and were therefore inferior performance wise. There is no end of conversion for early FI porches to carbs or EFI for this reason. Look at the performance drop when the 308 went to FI.

Now when it comes to driving pleasure, I have no problem with EPS per se, its just that the current units detract from the driving pleasure, especialy in a rear engined porche part of whose appeal was that live steering feel. Removing the clutch and a riflebolt stick, once again further removes interaction with the car, all done in the name of performance and efficiency. Yet what is lost is driving pleasure, and if ultimate performance is all that counts i can just go for a GTR.

Remember that old BMW slogan, the ultimate driving machine, we are now in the era of the ultimate machine which can be programed to drive faster.

Yes a PDK does two things. It opens up the product to a wider audience, and it provides statisticaly faster accleration. So yes you can now have your GT3 as an everyday driver, it will pootle around in traffic just like any hyundai. But what is lost int he process is a true sportscar. Now we have a machine which can be commanded to perform tricks, it can go round a track faster, but it can only speak to you in a very muted way, and I will bet it wont meld with you.

There is a reason why an AT or PDK motorcycle has never suceeded. Those who ride bikes do so for the experience and joy of the ride. In fact most motorcycles models are made for the experience of the ride not ultimate raw performance.

in this era of performance cars whose very objective numbers exceed even the best drivers ability on the street, and most drivers ability on the track, why not make funtional yet emotive machines that are superlatively fast yet also fun to drive, a machine that is an extension of your body, as opposed to a computer keyboard ride in the form of a wheel and two pedals.

the futire will prove me correct. High performace sports cars will slowly die out as distinct models as they will offer little over the hot versions of regular cars. Only when that tactility is brought back will they see renewed growth. Ferrari may be immune to this because they have styling and dramam to partialy compensate. Porche has neither of these attributes.
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  #27  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxerman View Post
Amongst DRIVERS the WE is not a minority. We can see that BMW made a stick M5 to satisfy that minority. My local Fcar dealer has told me of any number of 458 sales that did not take place because its flappy paddle only. We know a 430 with stick fetches a 15% premium.

As soon as FI could funtion with the same or better performance than carb there was no issue. The first FI cars had flat cams compred to their carb models because the bosch unit could not take high lift and were therefore inferior performance wise. There is no end of conversion for early FI porches to carbs or EFI for this reason. Look at the performance drop when the 308 went to FI.

Now when it comes to driving pleasure, I have no problem with EPS per se, its just that the current units detract from the driving pleasure, especialy in a rear engined porche part of whose appeal was that live steering feel. Removing the clutch and a riflebolt stick, once again further removes interaction with the car, all done in the name of performance and efficiency. Yet what is lost is driving pleasure, and if ultimate performance is all that counts i can just go for a GTR.

Remember that old BMW slogan, the ultimate driving machine, we are now in the era of the ultimate machine which can be programed to drive faster.

Yes a PDK does two things. It opens up the product to a wider audience, and it provides statisticaly faster accleration. So yes you can now have your GT3 as an everyday driver, it will pootle around in traffic just like any hyundai. But what is lost int he process is a true sportscar. Now we have a machine which can be commanded to perform tricks, it can go round a track faster, but it can only speak to you in a very muted way, and I will bet it wont meld with you.

There is a reason why an AT or PDK motorcycle has never suceeded. Those who ride bikes do so for the experience and joy of the ride. In fact most motorcycles models are made for the experience of the ride not ultimate raw performance.

in this era of performance cars whose very objective numbers exceed even the best drivers ability on the street, and most drivers ability on the track, why not make funtional yet emotive machines that are superlatively fast yet also fun to drive, a machine that is an extension of your body, as opposed to a computer keyboard ride in the form of a wheel and two pedals.

the futire will prove me correct. High performace sports cars will slowly die out as distinct models as they will offer little over the hot versions of regular cars. Only when that tactility is brought back will they see renewed growth. Ferrari may be immune to this because they have styling and dramam to partialy compensate. Porche has neither of these attributes.
You have made your point comprehensively and well. Yet, per your final point, I don't fear for Porsche. The sad reality is they sell many more Panamera's and Cayenne's than 991 and Boxster and Cayman together. And, I suspect they will likely grown their audience with the new 991 line-up "net" (sure, they *may* lose a few fans of the brand, but - as you point out- they will gain some too). IMHO, their biggest risk to success is pricing. 911's have gotten *very* expensive over the past few years (sure, everything has, but...). If you meant they only have to fear losing sales of high performance models, well, I disagree with that too. Their approach of selling multiple flavors of each platform has proven to be a winner and they will continue to do so IMHO. Of course, one can color their efforts as "not high performance", but I suspect they still will.

Final point, and its obviously a religion in that some folks can't comprehend a different view than their own, but I actually *like* paddle shifters *and* manual gearboxes.

I thought I would hate a sports car with flappy paddles...until I owned one. Then I took a car like a scud and CS on the track and loved F1 boxes even more. And, I even like the shifting around town and on fun drives. Please understand, I still love manual gearboxes too. You see, its not religion nor some standard of "love or appreciation" for sports cars nor a "statement of skills" that I aspire to that requires me to appreciate manual gearboxes though...I just like 'em. And automated manuals. Kinda reminds me I like blondes and brunette's, librarians and bartenders, and...well, enough with that analogy :-)
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  #28  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:03 PM
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Being the owner of one of the last GT3's with a manual, I look forward to a great trade in value when I go for the new PDK equipped car.
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  #29  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:36 PM
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I remember when the Porsche racing community complained about ferrari having the sequential gearbox and Porsche still being a manual and how much laptime was lost by having to shift manually and take hands off steering wheel. I raced a 997 Cup in the Rolex series and the sequential box was a godsend.
This PDK box is fantastic and will make the car even more of a track weapon.
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  #30  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ARTNNYC View Post
I remember when the Porsche racing community complained about ferrari having the sequential gearbox and Porsche still being a manual and how much laptime was lost by having to shift manually and take hands off steering wheel. I raced a 997 Cup in the Rolex series and the sequential box was a godsend.
This PDK box is fantastic and will make the car even more of a track weapon.
and Porsche still has that problem as many of the Grand Am GT cars are now paddle shift and the 997 is still sequential....
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  #31  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:07 PM
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and Porsche still has that problem as many of the Grand Am GT cars are now paddle shift and the 997 is still sequential....
the new GT Porsches will be paddle shift
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  #32  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by arizonaitalian View Post
You have made your point comprehensively and well. Yet, per your final point, I don't fear for Porsche. The sad reality is they sell many more Panamera's and Cayenne's than 991 and Boxster and Cayman together. And, I suspect they will likely grown their audience with the new 991 line-up "net" (sure, they *may* lose a few fans of the brand, but - as you point out- they will gain some too). IMHO, their biggest risk to success is pricing. 911's have gotten *very* expensive over the past few years (sure, everything has, but...). If you meant they only have to fear losing sales of high performance models, well, I disagree with that too. Their approach of selling multiple flavors of each platform has proven to be a winner and they will continue to do so IMHO. Of course, one can color their efforts as "not high performance", but I suspect they still will.

Final point, and its obviously a religion in that some folks can't comprehend a different view than their own, but I actually *like* paddle shifters *and* manual gearboxes.

I thought I would hate a sports car with flappy paddles...until I owned one. Then I took a car like a scud and CS on the track and loved F1 boxes even more. And, I even like the shifting around town and on fun drives. Please understand, I still love manual gearboxes too. You see, its not religion nor some standard of "love or appreciation" for sports cars nor a "statement of skills" that I aspire to that requires me to appreciate manual gearboxes though...I just like 'em. And automated manuals. Kinda reminds me I like blondes and brunette's, librarians and bartenders, and...well, enough with that analogy :-)
You make and clarify some great points. Yes Porche sells a lot of Caynnes and Panameras. They also sell multiple versions of the 991. So I see no reason to have blanded out the one pure raw car they still made, its not as if there are not multiple other choices in the Porche line. They blanded out and destroyed the turbo which was the hard core model, the GT3 happened almost by accident, they had to make a few for the road, then it was a sucess now its being ruined.

As to paddle****, I am sure it has its place, and yes its faster especialy on atrack, and more comfortable on the street. But many of us drive on the street and track for fun and recreation, therefore an engaging car is more desireable. The GT3 was that car, and now but in name its gone.

As for analogies here is another one maybe more apt. I like all women, but in bed I value a good or great lover, someone I can feel and who feels me, someone to meld with and ignite passion. I like the electricty of the touch and moment. On the other hand nothing is more dissapointing than taking that ultra hot women to bed and discovering that once into it we are dealing with some flappy paddles, if you get my drift.

BTW my take on the sound synthesisers in may moderns is fake orgasms.
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  #33  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:02 AM
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Ok I saw the video to the end. They claim its even more of an engaging drive. They are sensitive to the debate and claim to have the answers. Lets see what the roadt testers say.
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  #34  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TheMayor View Post
No manual?

Burn them! Burn them! Damn you to hell Porsche!!
agree.

Not everyone is trying to shave a 1/10 of a second on a track gig.

I will always love manual transmissions.
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  #35  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:54 AM
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This new PDK seems pretty trick....the way I'm understanding it is you can "pop the clutch" so to speak?

I look forward to Chris Harris' review.
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  #36  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:16 PM
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I look forward to Chris Harris' review.
He'll be THE guy for this review. The man lives for lightweight 911s. He is very much to blame for my recent aircooled 911 RS obsession (the 964).
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  #37  
Old 03-06-2013, 01:13 PM
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my recent aircooled 911 RS obsession (the 964).
Funny you mention this....I've been doing the same recently....helluva car...I want one!
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  #38  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:08 PM
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Looks great. Can;t wait for the RS.
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  #39  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:35 PM
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I submit that if they had retained a manual gearbox for this GT3, it really should have been the six speed rather than the seven.

The super-overdrive seventh is outside this car's mission and is superfluous. It would just mess up the shift pattern.
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  #40  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ralfabco View Post
agree.

Not everyone is trying to shave a 1/10 of a second on a track gig.

I will always love manual transmissions.
I was being sarcastic.

Love the manual all you want. They just don't have a place in the modern world.
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