So I started looking into 991 GT3s, and here is what I've noticed... 1) 2014s with engine replacements and dealership 'lemon' buy backs are being sold with asking prices $5-15k over MSRP. 2) there are a couple of 2014s with engine replacements and no 'lemon' buy backs being sold with asking prices ~$15k over MSRP. 3) if you are lucky enough, you can buy a new 2015 for MSRP. ...What gives? Are they really that good, or is it a supply and demand thing? I wonder if sellers are in fact getting over MSRP for slightly used 2014s. Do you think the 'lemon' title will affect long term values of these cars? The engine replacement is legit and Porsche are even offering a better warranty; is that why people are asking for more than MSRP? Are these going to hold value over the next 1-2 yrs? Over 5 yrs? What happens to prices when the GT3 RSs become available? Any insight, theories, answers appreciated!!! TIA, DL
1) supply/demand for sure 2) I have do faith in Porsche that the "fixed" cars with new engines are truly "fixed"
but in reality, it is that good. look at all the reviews comparing it to the Maclaren and Ferrari....they cost twice as much and are equal in performance and fun factor to the GT3
I nearly purchased a GT3, but PAG reigned on paint to sample, but do know the market well. It is all supply, demand, and impulse buying for some of the above MSRP pricing. I think in early 2015, the GT3 prices will level off. My local dealer had a 2014, and it was sold for MSRP. I'd bet, Porsche will end 991 GT3 production in Dec this year, and then in early 2015 begin building the GT3 RS for a few months. The next GT3 will not be available until 2016 or later to meet all new fed requirements. My gut tells me, Porsche will use the GT4, a 2015 new Cayman model, that is GT3 like, as a fill in. Much more volume and profit for Porsche. Arguable a better track car too.
Yes, it ends in Dec .then the RS. Speculation is that the next gen GT3 will be turbo ..I think that is part of the desire to get this car .possibly the very last NA GT3 ever ..and a small # built. Its gotten a ton of praise .laps some tracks as quick as an MP4 ..CAR Magazine gave it sports car of 2013 ..over an MP4 and F12. The "lemon" buy backs was an auction to Porsche dealers only for cars that the initial owners decided they did not want the car after the engine swap ..so a buy back is then considered a "lemon" under some law as I understand it ..some cars from that auction were bought at or above MSRP ..I believe they will still have a warranty, etc ..so not really "lemons" just 14' models that had an engine swap where the initial owner refused the car ..this whole thing would not worry me at all. Not sure if any allocations are left but if you can find one, you can now order the bucket seats.
do those cars have "dirty" titles (salvage or otherwise)? Carfax issues? if they don't I'd have no problem buying one. if they do, they became a much more difficult proposition (unless your use for the car will be non-registered track toy)
997 GT3s last with manual transmission... 991 GT3s last of the non-turbo track oriented (some people predict)... 430 & 599 last Ferraris with manual transmissions... 458s last 8-cyl non-turbo... ...So difficult to predict if any of the above 'Last Ofs' are really unique and because of this drive value up, or at least provide for a flatter depreciation curve. However in terms of production numbers, GT3s especially RSs are produced in fewer quantities than 430s, 458s. Speciales, Scuderias, and 16Ms are obviously better comparisons to GT3s in terms of production numbers and characteristics. I think only the Speciale -- last of NA V8 & ltd production -- can be classified as a 'Last Of' (ok, some would argue that 16Ms are the last of the soft tops). Scuderias seem to have leveled off at approx 60% of MSRP for a 5 yr old car. 997 GT3 RSs from a depreciation percentage have done much better (but at a much lower price point since RSs new were about 50% the cost of a Scuderia).
I'm not sure ..all I know is when a manufacturer buys a car back from a consumer it must be branded as a lemon. Typically, this means that the manufacturer could not fix a repeated problem with the vehicle in a timeframe perscribed by the state lemon law ..therefore it falls under the "lemon" law even though it has a brand new engine now. PCNA will still offer a full warranty and provide financing on these cars as well.
The Turbo is a better daily driver than the GT3. Especially with sub freezing winter driving. It will certainly offer more road comfort and quieter interior cabin noise, more creature comforts, and less in your face styling. It will not feel as nimble from a pure sports car driving standpoint. To me, the new TTS is more of a GT car, and the GT3 is a shade more of a sports car. It all comes down to what is most important to you. If you plan to track the car rather regularly , the TT, as far as I know, does not offer sport seats to install a harness bar with 5 pt belts. The TT probably will depreciate quicker than a GT3.
You have impeccable taste considering a 991 GT3! I have it on good authority that when its short run of production ceases in December, this GT3 variant will have the shortest production run of all GT3s, it will be the rarest, and it will be the last normally-aspirated GT3. That's a big deal for lovers of the GT program. The reason for the short run is the ever-changing Eu production mandates, and the GT faithful benefit as a result. I can see these being quite collectible, and the market for them is easy to figure out: there simply aren't enough to go around. This is not the case in the USA only, but its true in Europe and other places too. Porsche 991 GT3 resale market bursts into life | Total 911 Added to this, the car continues to gain accolades in magazines, amongst testers and true drivers everywhere, all of whom say they have not driven a PDK quite like it. It can be a *****cat around town in Drive, or a scary beast in Manual PDK on the Sport setting. A true split-personality, the ultimate Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde car. Press like this, plays on the minds of car enthusiasts everywhere. A love letter from Hammond to Porsche - BBC Top Gear I also have it on good authority from my contact in Germany that the replacement engines for the 991 GT3 are quite 'Spezial' and I think that the faithful who exercised patience with Porsche Ag have found out that they have been amply rewarded! Once the realization becomes universal that the 991 GT3 goes like a scalded cat, demand can only increase still further. However. There are quite a few things being mentioned in this thread that require some correction. Buy backs - The cars that were sold back to Porsche were not "Lemon Buy Backs" in any sense. Here is the law regarding a Lemon Law Buyback: Lemon Law Buyback Vehicles FFVR 17 What Porsche did was quite smart. They voluntarily offered to re-purchase the few cars that had been delivered, and also offered to allow recipients of incoming cars to opt out. Very simple. Porsche truly made proverbial Lemonade out of Lemons because they ended up with a limited series of cars with slightly more potent engines than was ever intended, which will be beloved amongst the faithful for a long time. They also won a lot of respect from a lot of people and made some friends for life by the simple expedient if taking a negative situation and 'making it right'. As regards the engine issue itself, it was a simple component recall, just the same as you see on any number of makes & models. Porsche Cars North America, Inc. were pro-active and filed a recall with the NHTSA on March the 24th, 2014, NHTSA Campaign Number 14V090000: "Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (Porsche) is recalling certain model year 2014 911 GT3 vehicles manufactured October 19, 2013, through January 16, 2014. In the affected vehicles, a piston connecting rod may come loose and damage the engine crankcase. CONSEQUENCE: A damaged crankcase may allow engine oil to leak onto hot components in the engine bay which may result in a fire. REMEDY: Porsche will notify owners, and dealers will install a new engine with improved piston connecting rod connections, free of charge. The recall began on June 6, 2014. Owners may contact Porsche at 1-800-545-8039. Porsche's number for this recall is AE01. Note: Owners are advised not to drive their vehicles until the engine has been replaced. NOTES: Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov." Auction Purchases - If anyone has any documentary evidence of authorized USA dealers acquiring 991 GT3s as a result of an organized auction for dealers, please post said documents, we'd all love to see them. I'm in tight with several authorized USA dealers and I never heard of this. Titles - the titles I have seen for 2014 991 GT3s which received a new engine are standard titles without any restrictions. There is no CARFAX anomaly that shows up. In fact the 2014 cars are issued with a Certificate of Authenticity from Porsche citing the updated engine number. Values - I don't see them shooting up or anything, but I don't see them softening either. I do see people discussing this car in 10 years time saying: "Aren't those the ones that got new blueprinted engines from the factory? Great, I want one of those". So maybe a bad thing turned out to be a good thing in the end. Either way, I say if you like the looks of them and you want one, just go for it. Believe me the sound they make approaching 9,000 with the sport exhaust deployed has to be heard to be believed. That alone may be worth the price of admission.
I am actually contemplating a 2015 GT3 for myself. I currently have a 2012 458 Italia so I may not be satisfied with the GT3 in comparison but the car costs almost half of the price of a new 458 so I am considering that aspect of it (I have some other projects going on so the money savings is important for me right now). I had Porsches in the past, a 993, 993 Turbo, Boxster S, 997 Turbo Stage III and the cars were great. The Porsches lacked the soul of a Ferrari but they are great cars and a lot of fun to drive in my opinion. I have very impressed with the GT3 styling. The high revving NA motor is going to hold its value very well especially if they go turbo next year for the GT3. It seems Porsche is giving dealers a few more allocations late in the year to keep up with demand. Smart move, for $150,000 give or take the car is an amazing machine, lot of bang for the buck. I have found a 2015 allocation for November build and December delivery and may just jump on it! Almost all cars depreciate but I feel this model with limited supply and the NA motor should hold its value better than many other sports cars out there, but thats just a guess.
The auction happened. Here is one of those said CARFAX reports.....see cars.com for more. CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 2014 PORSCHE 911 GT3 Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Do it!!! I recently bought a 991GT3 and absolutely love it. I was considering a 458 as well as other cars and settled on the porsche. To me, it has the feel of my old Stradale, and the performance of the 458. I really does feel special. A few weeks ago, I spent a week with the car at Crescent Classic. We drove over 1000 miles in the ozark mountains. The car is extremely capable and gave up nothing to any of the cars there.
Your post was hardly helpful, and could suggest to the initiated (such as the OP) that all 991 GT3s are subject to this, so my authorized dealer clued me in. Just twenty (20) cars were part of a PCNA organized buy-back a few days ago. These cars were those that certain individuals had pushed to be part of a Lemon Buy Back, even though they dont qualify as such. PCNA's excellent compromise was this auction, allowing dealers to purchase them. Porsche Finance announced they WILL lease and finance these cars. Porsche also added a year of warranty on to the car. All the cars sold for anywhere between 130k and 155k to dealers! I don't think we have any worries about resale! In my mind, this is REALLY good news for the GT3. FWIW, here below are all 20 cars by way of useful information. Image Unavailable, Please Login
2 of the 20 cars for sale as advertised (below). Porsche will finance them. My PCNA source tells me roughly half of the 20 have already re-sold. He also says they are not worried about 'title' issues! In this particular state (CA), the only 'branded' title is salvage, and these are not that. There was a disclosure letter written by PCNA and a verbal announcement was made before auction began. Remember that a lot of Porsche dealers got very few allocations of GT3s, perhaps 2-4 in TOTAL (2014 & 2015)! At the end of the day I think the message is we have a car that will do well on resale, and not many more coming between now & December's production. The lemon tag on the 20 is a joke because it's a 2014 buy back with a new engine and a PCNA warranty. If you have a 991 GT3 that is not one of the 20, I guess its worth a pretty penny. The 20 too, apparently. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
A couple comments from 991 GT3 owners on another site that might be helpful putting this in perspective: "The bottom line is I had a little anxiety about this auction and feel a lot better now knowing Porsche did not hurt us here." "There's nothing wrong or different with it compared to the other guy's 2015 car except I got a better warranty." As a 991 GT3 owner myself (you probably guessed it, not one of the 20 though), I feel the same way.
yours plus these 4 are a quarter of the ones from Joe's list, all currently listed on cars.com, all with branded title issues (on the Carfax, if not the actual title). CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 2014 PORSCHE 911 GT3 CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 2014 PORSCHE 911 GT3 CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 2014 PORSCHE 911 GT3 CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 2014 PORSCHE 911 GT3
My post suggested no such thing. If anyone posted anything that initiated misinformation it was you....your comments about Buy Backs, the Auction and Titles were ALL WRONG! ....a little humility would go a long way Joe.
I imagine all 20 will show the same, and that's why it was important to publish the list, as I thought it would be useful for those to whom it is a matter of concern. By the way, the list is not mine, it is PCNA's.
indeed, and yes, attributed to you as poster, not as content creator and well done to the gent who spec'd a 991 GT3 to nearly $180k....including the extended range fuel tank!
Thank you. I'm still not sure why the 20 cars got branded the way they did, but clearly it has made little difference in the marketplace. That said, if the branded titles/carfaxes are a problem for anyone, now they have a published list to go by.
