Question: 964 3.6 turbo Flachbau vs 959

959 better bought imho...disclaimer, BOTH were well sold.

 

Interesting price points.

I looked at the 959, 964 Turbo S Flachbau, and 964 Turbo S Leichtbau ("Lightweight") quite a few years ago when I was looking to buy into this segment/era.

IMHO, the 959 stands head and shoulders above the other two with respect to importance for the Porsche heritage. Many of its innovations are found in the current cars. However, even then, I was very concerned about maintenance issues, you really need need a specialist to maintain the car, especially if one wants to keep the car in perfect condition.

I did end up buying the Leichtbau, for the concept (light weight RS philosophy), the performance (at one point it was the fastest production car, if I remember correctly), and the looks (I like the traditional look better than the Flachbau look). Plus, the car I found was in truly exemplary condition, with about 14K kilometres then. I continue to be very happy with the car - not a single issue after many years of ownership, and it looks and drives as if brand new.

No question the Flachbau presents a much more unique look, and a more comfortable, touring oriented drive. Some will prefer it.

 

Carlos, this is great perspective.

In my opinion, you purchased an acutely unique automobile that was built with a very singular purpose. That being said, historically 'rara avis' roughly translates to 'mucho dinero'. Cheers

 

I think the valuation is more about the number made...if memory serves me correctly there were only 39 US Market Flachbau's made (79 total ?) vs over 280 959's. Even the 959 is felt to be the more iconic of the two, the rarity of the flachbau evens it up, at least from a demand/market perspective.

 

959 without a doubt, it's an icon.

 

Stradman, thank you for the insight. I have been up close with the 959 several times, but I have never had an extended drive in one. Interesting that it drives more comfortably than the Flachbau.

 

No question, for me its the 959. A true icon. I recently spent the better part of 2 yrs searching for one of the original 29 Ruf VIN CTR2...there were 29 made. Again, if I had to trade the CTR2 in for a 959, I would have to face the probability that it would be much harder to find an original CTR2 for sale down the road if I want to replace it. Would be hard pressed to turn a 959 down but that thought does enter the equation for me. Maybe its because I've now driven the CTR2 and I'm even more blown away by it. I think rarity of a car is a factor that brings valuations of cars closer, that in individual comparison may be miles apart in tech or historic significance. Collector mentality will always covet the hard to find, that holds true for art/coins/cars anything. Hope you are great my friend !

 

Your initial question of which can and should generate more "awe inspiring sentiments" - I think the 959 is much more important in both Porsche's and the broader automotive world's historical timeline. It foreshadowed so much of what was to come for Porsche and was years ahead of its time. I can tell you that driving one today, it still feels quite modern and it is more than 30 years since it was designed! I also think the classic world recognizes it more readily and holds it in the supercar category, whereas the Flachbau is merely a very special Porsche.

They are completely different cars to drive, the 959 being AWD of course and much heavier, but also with more power. The Flachbau is a single turbo RWD, so it is more challenging and dare I say, old school. It also feels smaller from the cockpit, although not by much and here they are rather similar.

To your further question of who got the better buy - the 959 actually sold for $1,120,000 all in. Classic silver with a special order full black interior, very sharp combination. Mileage at basically 30,000kms is high for U.S. collectors and that really held it back. There have been quite a few 959's that have sold here in the past two years, almost all with lower mileage and I think this car underperformed last weekend simply because the market has absorbed as many as it can in the short-term. The Flachbau is the first to appear at auction here in recent years (meaning, at modern market levels) and thus is fresher, but at the same time, not a top collector-level car because it had been repainted and Polar Silver is a rather dull color. I think it sold market correctly without a Seinfeld premium attached to it.

Years from now, finding great examples of either model will be that much more difficult and both will be much more expensive than this past weekend. If you could only buy one today, it really depends upon your collection and how the car fits in, also what your intent is for the car. The 959 fits in better with a broad supercar collection and/or an extensive Porsche collection, while the Flachbau is more likely to be found only in the latter.

Both are rare, unique and interesting cars for sure.

 

The issue with mileage is a relative one. When you get into the Flachbau-level 911s, quite a few were essentially bubble-wrapped since new, so even a 12k mile example like the Seinfeld car is 'higher' mileage. Same with the 959s, 993TTS, and most other modern, "special" 911s. In that respect, I don't think what is considered collectible mileage is all that different between contemporary Porsches and FCars.

 

And I generally agree, with the exceptions being the very special and rare 911s, such as the flachbau, etc.

Original owners and collectors recognized the importance of minimizing the mileage of these rare editions... This is reflected in the fact that the Seinfeld Flachbau was considered 'higher mileage', which in turn limited the number of buyers and ultimately the price achieved...

Stretching it a little bit - A car like a 964 3.6T, or '89 Speedster with 25k miles is considered 'nice', but those cars aren't remarkable, only because there are so many sub-10k mile cars. The same applies to most every special edition FCar, PCar, etc... What's considered low mileage and high mileage is always sliding scale relatively based on other examples.

 

I was thinking exactly about this today!

I owned a 964 3.6 Turbo and now a 959, and to be honest the 959 feels just more special, more advanced and it is faster, it definitely attracts much much more attention at any event you show up with it, no question.
To me the Flachbau 964 is just a very cool option on a somewhat regular production Turbo, but the 959 is a special one off car, the only 911 based Supercar and of great importance in the history of Porsche and the automobile in general.
To me the 959 is undervalued and the 964 has reached its peak, they just can not be worth the same.

Many people are scared of the maintenance on 959's but once they are properly sorted by someone who knows what they are doing and are driven regularly they give no problems, I drove mine for 800 miles in one day last month, both highway and city traffic with no issues.

 

How often do people recognize the 959 when you drive it in public? Do people just assume it's "another" 911?

 

959 is an iconic supercar which will be worth much more over the long term. a 94 turbo S is likely part of a current bubble crop of cars could be worth a lot less in the long term, pure marketing nonsense. (I have owned both, actually my turbo S was even more rare as it was a package car)