TR Major - Water Pump Seal - This Can't Be Right! | FerrariChat

TR Major - Water Pump Seal - This Can't Be Right!

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by vincenzo, Mar 1, 2008.

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  1. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #1 vincenzo, Mar 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The pic with text shows T Rutland's seal kit PN99200114 which is said to be for a '90 TR (per web site also).

    The Impellor Seal looks completely wrong for this car.
    Is it some kind of 'non-intuitive' seal update?

    The 'blown apart' old seal has a rubber face which abuts the impeller and slides (rotates) against the main body of the seal.

    The 'new' seal does not appear to have a sliding surface & I'm guessing that the white surface is supposed to fit in some kind of housing to form a seal.

    Also... The oil seal which sits behind impellor seal had a metal O.D. whereas the original seal also had rubber on it's O.D. I was suspicious of the oil seal, but installed it assuming it was an updated version. Then I got to the Impellor Seal and realized "no way".

    If you can shed some light on these seals please chime in!

    It was a pain pulling out the seals until I scrounged around the shop and found this little gem. It is a simple paint can opener from the hardware store with the tip bent over a bit more than the original design. Using some leverage as shown - it worked GREAT! The seal popped out so easy I was startled!

    :) Oh, yeah - - free too - - I like it like that! :)

    AND the other end is designed to open a bottle of Beer!!!!!!!!!!!

    Looks like my project is going to lose a week over a wrong part number unless somebody can offer up some new info....

    Rgds,
    Vince
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  2. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #2 Ricambi America, Mar 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Looks like you got the A, but actually need B. Both seals shown below are from "genuine Ferrari" packaging. (Seal B was bagged, A was/is blister packed.)

    There were a number of different variants of the WP seal depending on the TR engine number. Early TR (until Engine 20820) use 120948, superseded to 152051. The 152051 is actually a combination of two parts into a single assembly, 120948 + 121553 (spacer). Later TR's use 130932.

    Disclaimer... I don't understand why Ferrari did this and cannot explain the functional differences. 91TR or Dave Helms? Thoughts?
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  3. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    ^ Good lord... I just retyped that above post. What a mess it was.
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #4 vincenzo, Mar 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As always, thanks for the help Daniel.

    The engine in question is a 209XX series in a 1990 TR, so according to my 1990 parts book it should need seal 130932 (only).

    Presumably(?) engine numbers less than 20820 use either:
    ........The 120948 Seal Ring + the 121553 "Backplate for Ring"
    ........................OR..............................
    ........The single piece equivalent 152051

    My 1990 parts book makes no mention of 152051 but I suspect that 152051 is the PN that I had received.
    Presumably(?) 152051 was a retrofit for the earlier cars supplied some time after 1990.

    My question:
    Is my old seal an incorrect: 120948 Seal Ring + the 121553 "Backplate for Ring"?
    or is it the latest 130932?

    If my old seal is in fact 130932, then it must also be a two piece seal like the earliest version prior to engines less than 20820.

    Whew - this is giving me a headache.

    So, Daniel, **please** tell me what I actually had in the car and what I actually need!

    BTW - - I REALLY don't think I need part 'B' per your post. Both of the seals you have shown look like they need to fit into a recess on impeller PN120770. My impeller has no recess and per my book should be PN 130930.

    Also, please tell me if you stock item PN130931 the "Spacer" which accompanies the seal 130932.

    As always,
    Many Thanks,
    Vince
    PS: If the photos are too small let me know & I can re-post
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  5. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #5 Ricambi America, Mar 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Thanks Daniel - I know the photos take a lot of time & trouble. You & Ricambi are most appreciated.

    I believe your latest photo is another version of 152051. If not - I am totally confused.

    According to my book I need 130932. Do you have one of these?

    Always thankful for your help,
    Vince
     
  7. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #7 vincenzo, Mar 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This photo should explain my problem with the seals I've seen so far.

    None of the versions have a seal where they contact the impeller. In addition, they make no allowance for differential rotation between the block and the impeller.

    I suspect they would leak like a sieve in my application.

    Hopefully, PN: 130932 addresses these issues.

    Hope this helps,
    Vince
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  8. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #8 Motob, Mar 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The original seal in your waterpump was the incorrect one. It was a two-piece type which fits an impeller that has a recess to hold the ceramic portion of the seal. I am only aware of two different seals for the TR, the early two-piece style and the later one-piece style. There may be more than one version of the one piece seal, but they should all work the same This is the impeller for the later one-piece seal, with no recess.

    We use the seal that Rutlands have supplied you on the later TR's. One thing to note is that the one-piece seal is an extremely tight fit on the steel spacer tube/seal ride. I press the seal onto the tube using a hydraulic press before installing the tube/seal assembly in the housing. Otherwise you have to make a special driver that will press the seal onto the tube at the same time it is being driven into the bore without damaging the seal.

    Brian Brown
    Patrick Ottis Co.
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  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #9 vincenzo, Mar 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Brian this is beginning to make more sense.

    Now that I know what to look for, I can see the old style impeller 'cup' you mention in the cross sectional view in my manual. My 'new version' impeller looks just like yours and has no cup. It was lucky that the 'wrong seal' in my car actually was water tight!!!!

    Apparently:
    ~ The top half of the new seal assemble is compressed against the spring & lower half of the seal as the impeller is mounted.
    ~ Once compressed, the top half of the seal may then rotate free with respect to the stationary lower half.
    ~ The press fit 'Tube' and upper seal half both rotate at the same speed as the impeller and the shaft.

    Questions (see photo) do you:
    ~ use RTV or anti-sieze between the Tube & seal? It looks like red RTV in the photo....
    ~ use motor oil or perhaps anti-freeze as a lubricant between the Tube & shaft?
    ~ intentionally press the top of the seal to be flush with the top of the tube?

    Since the manual calls out for two versions of 'Tube' to go with the two versions of the seal... now I need to source a new Tube as well!

    What a mess was left behind!

    Many Thanks Brian - your expertice and Daniel's patience has really helped!

    Sincerely, Vince
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  10. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Yes, You are pretty much correct on all counts. I use a little sealant, silicone or Loctite 510 between the seal and tube. Then press the seal onto the tube so the end is flush. Be very careful, as the seal is fragile. I usually put a dab of silicone sealer between the impeller and the seal as well. If there is any damage to the bore in the housing where someone has pried out the old seal, then I'll put some sealer there too. The new seal has some sealant on it (red stuff), but that will not fill large gaps.

    I use some grease on the shaft and oil seal to ensure that it slides on, and made a special driver to tap the outer portion of the seal into the housing.

    Are you sure that you need a new seal tube? I can't remember the difference, but the tube is machined so that the OD is a press-fit on the ID of the seal. I wouldn't think that anyone would have changed it back to the earlier style. See if there are any marks on the tube where the original seal was from the factory, it is such a tight fit that you have to destroy and peal the original seal off of the tube.

    Brian Brown
    Patrick Ottis Co.
     
  11. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Good idea. One point to consider is that the seal 'slides' down with the tube as it is installed. It 'may' move a bit as it wears as well(?). If the silicon has any time to set up, it will tear. Perhaps Hylomar instead of silicone would be an excellent choice for these locations. It is good for either anti-freeze or oil.

    See this for detail on Hylomar:
    http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/automotive/85249.pdf

    This is also a good spot for Hylomar. Since it does not set up it will not make future removal appreciably more difficult. It is specifically designed for metal to metal flange connections as well as use as a gasket dressing.

    I suspect the cup is sprayed with a red anti-sieze as it is manufactured - likely it is not intended as a sealant. Your thoughts about supplementing this with a sealant are extremely valid.

    I'll plan on using a **very light** bit of synthetic grease along the lower 3/4's of the pump housing and then drive the cup 3/4's of the way in. Putting the grease on the pump housing will push any excess grease into the housing and leave the outermost 1/4 free of contamination. Then I'll lather up the upper 1/4 of the cup's exterior with Hylomar and then press it home. The excess Hylomar will be pushed to the outside where I can then wipe it away with a towel. This process should make for an easier cup removal next time and still give a clean surface for the Hylomar to form a good water tight seal.

    Yeah, I know.... overkill.

    Presumably you are referencing the 'Tube to Shaft' space(?). I agree with your use of an oil based grease here. The backside of this tube is exposed to the oil side of the ball bearing - there is no oil seal at that end of the shaft.

    If you are referencing the rear oil seal - I fully agree with you there as well.

    Hopefully I can find a 1/2" drive, deep 12 point socket that will fit the bill. (fingers crossed)

    The parts book shows two versions of tube to go with two versions of seal/ impeller designs. Without a drawing or side by side comparison, I cannot confirm which version of tube is in my car.
    -also-
    The tube that was in the car was 'marginal' with some 'ding' surface roughness that I had removed with Scotchbrite. The tube had no longitudinal marks to indicate that it had ever had a press fit seal pushed onto it.

    With two stikes against it - better to replace than be sorry! I don't want to pull that engine again for another 7 years!


    Brian, a personal thank you for your professional expertice.
    It would be a heartbreak to do all this work just to see the car puke out of the water pump on first fire!


    Sincere Thanks,
    Vince
    PS: It may sound like it, but I don't work for Permatex. The longer I use Hylomar, the more I like it! Good stuff. Right up there on my list of favorite products along with Kroil penetrant!
     
  12. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #12 vincenzo, Jun 8, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
    THIS REALLY SUCKS!!!

    The new water pump seal leaks out the weep hole under nothing more than static head. Never even got it fired up.

    all right then....

    the water pump seal that was previously installed into my car appeared to be the incorrect seal (see the bottom most post). After much FChat consultation, it was decided thet the new seal that I was sent is in fact the correct seal. It was surmised that the seal that came out of the car was the incorrect seal......

    I am at a loss... if anybody has any suggestions - I'm all ears.

    I guess I need to talk with the suppliers again come monday.

    Did I mention..... THIS REALLY SUCKS!!!!

    Rgds,
    Vince
     
  13. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #13 vincenzo, Jun 8, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
    just in case - i tightened the hose clamp on the water pump nozzle. My initial torque was intentionally on the low side to prevent hose damage - perhaps I was too conservative. it 'may' be fooling me with moisture wicked near the water pump drain hole.....

    I give it a 30% chance of a leaky hose - 70% seal.

    If the last few drops subside to nothing - - - I'll hope it was the hose & continue until I can start the system & get it pressurized. That'll tell for sure. All I have left is the exhaust sytem before it can fire up on the jackstands.

    The morning inspection should tell me for sure.....

    I'll keep my fingers crossed.

    After reading Brian's post again - - I am more hopeful that I have the right seal in the car.... maybe I'll revise that to 50:50....

    Rgds,
    Vince
     
  14. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #14 2NA, Jun 8, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
    How bad is the leak? If it's just a drip, it is possible that the carbon seal has to "wear-in" a little bit before sealing perfectly. Might as well fire it up and give it a try.

    For such a simple design, water pumps on Italian cars can be some of the most exasperating challenges to get right. I have an entire toolbox drawer devoted to special tooling I've made for the job. It seems that everything has to be just perfect or it will leak.
    It's pretty hard to remove or reposition a new seal without damage so you end up buying another.

    *TIP* Never touch or lubricate the carbon surface when you are assembling.
     
  15. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    it has slowed to a couple of drops over the last half hour... I have my fingers crossed that it is just the fluid that was pushed out as I clamped down on the hose.

    antifreeze is a very 'wet' liquid & can weep a long distance. I sure hope that is all this is!

    Based on Brian's post - it sure seems to be the right seal. Everything he said seems to be spot on.

    We'll seeeeeeee.........

    Rgds,
    Vince
     
  16. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    We're pulling for you! :)
     
  17. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #17 vincenzo, Jun 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    after sitting overnight - it lost about 2 tablespoons of coolant.

    in the pic the seal in my hand is already pressed onto the tube:
    ~ the blue is hylomar for leak insurance
    ~ the red is synthetic grease to let the tube slip into the oil seal

    it was pressed on the tube with a flat (and level) 2x6 that fully distributed the load across the top of the seal.

    The pic of the fitted seal shows the excess hylomar squeezed out before it was wiped free. Hylomar was placed only on the seal so that the excess was pushed out of, rather than into the seal cavity.

    I have a real hard time believing that the coolant is leaking around the seal rather than thru it.

    I have no idea how to 'better' install this seal.

    Has anybody seen these seals leak in 'as new' condition?


    All thoughts welcome.

    Rgds,
    Vince
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  18. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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  19. vincep99

    vincep99 Formula 3
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    #19 vincep99, Apr 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Vincenzo,
    Thanks for all your help and documentation here. I am going through the same thing right now, and your pictures and explanation really help.

    That having been said I am still apprehensive about pulling the seal. I studied your pictures and the use of your special paint can tool (good tip!) and it looks like you pulled the spring-loaded seal (this came off by hand in my case), then the seal "cage" (this is what I am calling the metal part with the tabs), then the lower part of the seal.

    The seal cage is still in my engine (see photo), so the paint-can tool would not work yet; looks like I have to pull that "cage" to get to the lower part. Is that right?
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  20. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    I drill a very small hole in the brass cage and screw a sheet-metal screw into it. Then grab the screw with vise-grips with a slide hammer used for pulling dents out of cars. Be very careful when drilling this hole, as there is an oil seal (to keep the oil in the engine) just behind the cage. Sometimes you have to do this a few times until the cage comes loose.

    You just don't want to drill into the aluminum housing casting or the oil seal. If needed the oil seal is also replacable. You can get a slide hammer with a hook, and use this to try to get the cage out. The inner tube will not come off of the shaft until you get the cage out.

    Brian Brown
    Patrick Ottis Co.
     
  21. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #21 vincenzo, Apr 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    it was a struggle for me to get out the brass 'cup'. i did not want to do the screw method that motob suggests because of an unfamiliarity with 'what's behind it'.

    eventually, a set of slip joint pliers caught the outer lip sufficiently to bend it out. then they were used to work all the way around the cup. eventually it came out. you can see the cat scratching that was done to get it out in this pic. it buffed out well with scotchbright and was only cosmetic. this close-up pic looks way worse than actuality. the 'after' pic is shown in the older posts of this thread with the hylomar.

    in retrospect - Motobob's idea is likely the right way to go about it. just be careful to go no deeper than 'thru' the cup. don't penetrate deeply with the screws either.

    do NOT go into or past this rear oil seal with the drill.... keep the cuttings OUT of the engine

    here is a pic to give you a feel for the area behind the cup...

    yup - Motob has the right idea

    keep us posted!

    rgds,
    Vincenzo
    PS: make sure you go back in with the right seal and hydrotest before the engine goes back in!
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  22. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Yeoww! I hope you used a bunch of sealant on those scratches when you were done. I stuff some paper towels in the water pump passages to keep any metal particles from getting in the motor, and also use some grease on the drill bit.

    I use a very small bit, maybe 1/16" or 2mm, and stop drilling as soon as the bit goes through the cage. It looks like your oil seal was pretty old/rusty, so it was probably a good time to replace it. You can use the same slide hammer with a hook or screw method on the oil seal (remove the inner metal tube first), and be aware that the shaft bearing is just behind the seal, so you don't want to drill into it, or get any metal in there.

    Good luck!
    Brian
     
  23. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    They were superficial and only on the face (not in an area which seals). The hole in which the 'cup' resides has a 45 deg chamfer and no scratches were below the chamfer in the sealing area. The surface scratches polished out easily with scotchbrite as shown on post #17. Regardless, hylomar was used.

    The proof is in the results - 100% pressure tight!

    Next time - it will be a ground down, flat faced sheet metal screw.

    Rgds,
    Vincenzo
     
  24. vincep99

    vincep99 Formula 3
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    Brian, Vincenzo,
    Thanks for the great tips. I will give them a try; it is always good to listen to experienced people.

    Vincenzo,
    I do have a coolant-system pressure tester but it works on the radiator cap. I assume you plugged all the hoses and blew 14 psi/1 bar into the engine to check for leaks?

    vince
     
  25. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #25 vincenzo, Apr 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    the top hose has a female, plastic pvc threaded cap that was inverted to use it as a plug. A hole was drilled in its center and a standard rubber tire valve was fittted (easy to do).

    another threaded cap was used to plug off the water pump inlet.

    the heater line was plugged off with a piece of round stock I had on hand.

    It was filled with distilled water and pumped it up (air) to +/- 10psi and let it sit overnight - not a drop.

    It is so easy to do it is a 'must' during a wp service. getting the wrong seal was impossible to confirm until the leak made itself known. there have been multiple & subtle changes in this seal by F-car. the 'right' seal is absolutely required.

    trust me - pulling the engine a second time to r&r the wp seal truly is a pita.

    rgds,
    Vincenzo
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