Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

I don't know Doug this section has been pretty useful in outing several replicas running around the FOS and Revival.

 

Certainly a shame to butcher a factory Daytona coupe to make a spider. The island of misfit toys.

 

My understanding is that it's been done. But the car shouldn't be shunned as a fake, should it?

 

A non original 275 NART Spyder appeared at Cavallino as well as a replica F 40 LM.

Recently there was the replica 250 Testarossa with the "Hardtop" at the FOS that Marcel asked to be moved from this section.

All of the above were "Outed" in this section which seems to be a good thing.

 

Well said.

Although I don't blame Rob.

 

That is correct, Sir.

Gents -

Hit the [ ! ] button to Report Posts/Threads so they may be moved by moderators of that section.

After the [ ! ] is pressed, a dialogue box will come up.

Simply write "Is not vintage. Is replica."

Takes less time than a rant & when a moderator is available after pulling a shift on the psychic hotline, the thread will leave holy ground, all dressed up, and no place to go but purgatory.

Bear in mind 'Napolis' observations though. Solid points about why this section exists. To seek the truth.
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Tough to argue with Marcel.

 

It's the posts like these that highlight the violent reaction you see from people like me re: fakes.

Real Ferrari enthusiasts would mourn the rampant destruction of real, original Ferraris to make fake Ferraris. I am actually relieved when I see a fake Ferrari built on a Datsun, Toyota, etc., because I know that no real Ferraris were butchered to make the Frankenstein.

I ask the following question in every one of these threads re: fakes. When will it become a tragedy for the folks who get revved up seeing a fake 250GTO built on what used to be a real Ferrari 250 GTE, 330GT, etc.?? when there are only 50 GTEs left? 25? That day is coming a lot sooner than you think. Ferrari only made 50 330 Americas; best guess is that only 18 remain, yet they are still being butchered to make fakes. Where is the outrage?

I also ask what percentage of the people who seem to love fakes built on real Ferraris because of the "practically real GTO experience" have actually ever driven a GTE or 330GT; I bet it's extremely low. GTEs and 330GTs are incredible cars and deliver the "actual" Ferrari experience; try it!

My fervent hope is that a place like the Vintage forum of FerrariChat would be a place where the preservation of real Ferraris is a guiding principle, and not a place where people get all excited about how "good" a fake is.

The ONLY reason a fake should show up on F-chat Vintage is to determine which real Ferrari was butchered, and whether it is being presented/advertised as the real deal.

Finally, for the love of God, do not bring up the inevitable "the owner has the right to do whatever he wants to do with a car." No *****, sherlock. That's not the point; it's what owner's of vintage Ferrari SHOULD do, as stewards of fantastic pieces of automotive history.

Sorry, Darren; nothing against you personally.

 

ouch

 

I would suggest calling the new section: "Replicas, Reproductions and Recent Re-bodies"

I also think it explains what should go in there.

Regards,

Art S.

 

"Frauds" would be more concise.

 

I applaud Julio's opinion and his fiery 'Latin Spirit'. I know it and have it also, good or bad?
Sometimes a blessing, at times a damnation, yet very rewarding no matter what.
We invented 'famous' wars along with the Greeks. That should show for something.

Two thousand + years at it. Never heard of the Norwegian or English Punic wars.
Replicas of them, came after.

As I consider this to be an eternal problem, flash....! the Breadvan pops to mind.
Yes, what a.................yes, really bad. Yes Count Volpi, et al., words really fail me.

Please do tell me it is an exception or is not. If I owned said car, that an SWB gave up its clothes for, I would thumb my nose at anyone in the Ferrari world and for that matter, at anyone in the world. I don't care if you are the unabridged Ferrari encyclopedia on earth.
Now, please let's not make replica Breadvans

Until when, was it OK to change/modify your Ferrari without showing your knickers?
I am certain there are famous ones, accepted with a bow and a curtsy, with a bob here a snip there, possibly more, but at what point risk derision? With the "Plaster 250 GTE" of late fame, or with a really well made 'replica GTO as the 'horror' in question?

Regardless of your replies, I still agree with Julio, do not allow it in the 'Vintage' section...
I mean, really, a Corvette with a badly made Daytona body on it? It is simply lack of.......

Sorry gotta run, another revolution just started here, or was it the volcano?

I really enjoy being on f-chat , cool discussions.

Regards, Alberto

 

I feel there should be a fake section because it allows the people who love Ferrari to separate the real from the fake, otherwise you are just helping the creators of the fakes to blend in. It's the job of all good car clubs and forums to uphold a standard for their cars. Lift the rock and let some light shine in those dark places.

 

Outrage is here, although philosophically I find all replicas (even ones not built on a butchered vintage Ferrari) to be tragic in some respects.

 

+1 as long as it is clearly identified ...as replica or whatever

 

+1

 

My life would be poorer without the thread about Jan's Typo 156 "recreation". I think he did a huge service to the Ferrari community to spend his time and money so we could all see and hear that wonderful car.

I guess since the P4/5C is a poor copy of a historic car, we should probably ban that too. This, in spite of the fact that Jim has enriched the community both via the creation of the car and its predecessor, and by racing it as a privateer, as so many did "back in the day".

I don't particularly want to see a tarted up 240Z either, but if it's a Ferrari in the broad sense of the word, I supposed I'd like to have the chance to see on this forum. Heck, if you don't want to read a thread, don't.

I don't particularly like pickles, so I don't buy them. For some reason, the grocery store still stocks them, and I have to see them every time I go shopping.

YMMV,
Alex

 

frankly, I had the very same reaction as Julio when I jumped on the forum for a quick check sometime this morning - about 13 hours ago; out of pure coincidental timing, the Dino Replica thread, the Replicas by the numbers thread and the Redline Restoration GTO fake thread were in bold and at or towards the top of the forum. I thought "what the F; why am I even here?????"

I did report one thread re: fakes a few days ago which was promptly moved. I am pretty sure Julio is/was reacting to the marked increase in threads on fakes lately. It's a very disturbing phenomena and supports my warnings that the carnage of real vintage Ferrari 2+2s is only increasing.

 

I'm in the minority, as I would not mind owning and/or admiring a quality replica based on a real chassis. Based on prices I'm seeing nowadays, looks like I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

In a way I hope they would eventually trade at a discount to whatever donor car they're made from, so I could justify the purchase of one. Doesn't look like that's ever gonna happen.

 

When? Where exactly (track, parking lot, cruising on the street or on the lawn?)? Which? Photo? Please explain.

Marcel Massini

 

I am somewhat confused on the utter dislike of rebodied Ferraris.

While I agree that no plastic bodied replica, or body that sits on any chassis other than an original Ferrari should not have a place in the Vintage section, I find myself questioning the negativity of rebodied genuine chassis.

Please understand that I am a purist at heart, as I would rather have a classic Ferrari with a good original Patina on it than a freshly restored car. But I will try to raise a counterpoint here.

I remember seeing a 250LM in a parking lot at Pebble many years ago with what looked like original paint, complete with stone chips and nicks in the headlight covers. It showed signs of wear, as any 30+ year old car should. To me, there was no better example of a vintage Ferrari, but I am sure that most vintage cars do not get the privilage of aging so well.

So that leaves the rest of the cars that we have to consider.

I was horrified when my father's Series 1 Cab 0979GT had the original interior redone in a new color and different design after he sold it. While the style was slightly different to the original, it suited the new owner, and the craftsmanship looks to be excellent. Does the owner's choice to change this original interior now move it to the "fake" category? I think not. I believe it is just part of the car's ongoing history.

If we look at Ferraris that were rebodied, or modified back in the day (Breadvan), then there seems to be a general understanding that race cars evolve, crash and get rebuilt, or grow to suit a different purpose throughout their lives. Is this not just the Rich Pagentry, or history of a Ferrari?

If we look to a slightly earlier period of automotive history, we can see that many manufacturers primarily built chassis only, upon which owners contracted their own bodies from coach builders of their choice. Many examples evolved over the years, and had new bodies added to keep the cars current with the styles of the day. In many cases, these cars are known for a certain "standout design" in their history, even though the design may be a configuration different than its first inception.

Many Ferraris are restored to a configuration or livery that celebrated its greatest moment in history, even if it was not the configuration that it left the factory in.

In the case of Ferraris, it seems that their "modification date" in relation to their original build date seems to play a great deal of importance to the validity of the rebody. A GTE rebodied in the last 5 years will surely get plenty of criticism. A GTE rebodied in the 80s, as many were, still get its share of criticism. But what about a hypothetical GTE rebodied and raced back in the 60s? Does this rebody have any validity with a pedigreed race history? I wonder if these more recently rebodied cars will gain any acceptance as more time goes by, and the modification date vs the build date narrows.

In the end, I think it will just become the history of the car. I believe it is a vintage Ferrari if it was built at the factory, and claims its correct serial number and build date, regardless of whether it was restored with a new body, its original body, or rebodied with any period correct body during its life, so long as its history is known. It is still a vintage Ferrari, albeit, just not a 100% original Ferrari.

If one of these cars ever claims to be anything other than its correct history dictates, then I believe that aspect of the car is fake. I agree with Jim, in that keeping these cars active in the vintage forum might help to distinguish "Vintage rebodied cars" from "Vintage original cars".

Thoughts?

 

It is usally the owner or seller of a replica who actually creates the problem, simply because the majority does not disclose the truth about the car. Most are trying to fool the people. THAT is the real problem. It is about full disclosure or not.

This is a crazy world. And we haven't even started mentioning what is being built in Asia, China, India.............
This also proves (once again) WHY it is so important to keep proper records of the real Ferraris, so that there are no gaps in their histories and so that they always have a complete and chronological history from day one to today. It is also called "doing the homework".

Marcel Massini

 

This is right on the mark not only for Ferrari but all makes. Let the people who love these cars shed some light on the cars.