360 Exhaust Manifold Cracks

Actually this is an overstatement. I have been told and have not yet confirmed that Ferrari FINALLY went to a new vendor for 430 manifolds. I don't know what the hurry was, the POS manifolds have only been around 13 years.

Bit of an admission...... don't ya think?

 

Not planning on continued participation. To be honest I am just fishing for victims of their poor quality parts because since I am already on FNA's dart boards I would really like nothing better than be involved suing the living daylights out of them. It used to be a company I could be proud of being a part of. It is no longer.

 

Brian!!!!! What a welcome surprise. Take your shoes off and stay a while! We've missed you. - Tim

 

Dear Rifledriver and DuskyBird-

Thanks for your information regarding the manifold cracks.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but.... so what I have gathered is that since the manifold has creaks it leaks hot exhaust which can lead to higher temperatures in the engine compartement.

Also if there were uncombusted fuel vapor in the exhaust, can the leaked vapors in the engine compartement can pose a fire hazard?

So would the symptoms of a cracked leaky exhaust be higher engine oil temperatures and over-heating?

Can't the cracks be welded? This seems like an inexpensive repair. Obviously they can be replaced too. Are there better aftermarket ones?

Thanks again for the reply!

 

If you have the money, call a lawyer. That is the biggest pile of manure I've heard all day. Either your dealer is screwing you to buy their retail manifolds (I kinda doubt it), or somebody in New Jersey has an abhorrent lack of legal knowledge and/or customer service skills.

 

I have sent 4 430's to the dealer for exhaust manifold replacement so far this year, average milages seems to be around 10,000. I make manifold inspection a standard check on all 355-430 cars when they come in for a service.

I use a smoke tester to check them. Very easy to do on the 360 and 430. Just undo the temp sensor on the 430's at the collector and fill the manifold with smoke, if there is a leak you will see the smoke coming out around the shielding, takes all of 1/2 hour to do both sides.

360's have not been as bad as the 355 and 430, but there have been a few, most have higher mileage 30-40k on the clock, but it is happening.

 

You may find one or two or even the combination of these that leads to failure or premature/excessive wear.

1. Cracked header may cuase primary O2 sensor readings to be inaccurate

2. Because of the exhaust gas reversion wave foreign material may be sucked into the cylinder combustion area via a cracked header

 

This is *exactly* the reason why Rifledriver has a new engine sitting in his shop - The original sucked in this crap, and bent some valves.....

 

I noticed that from the header back, there are no exhaust system weight supports until the back of the trans where the muffler is mounted. There is a considerable amount of stress on the header flange IF you don't lift the muffler before attaching the mounting bolts. I made sure that I lifted enough to compensate for the weight of the muffler and the cats so that the header is relaxed and doesn't have to support the weight or preload of a lower mounted exhaust system. Aftermarket exhaust systems are sometimes installed by ambious automotive enthusiasts that may not pay attention to these minor details. This is probably where a facet of their argument is going to lead on the aftermarket muffler defense.

 

Is it just me or.....$6K for the 3yr belt service!!! That is almost TRIPLE what Ferrari dealer in So. Cal. charges!! I dont care what extras they did!! even if it came with a happy ending! MUST be more to it than just the 3 yr. belt service which includes coolant change and all acces..belts.

glad you are happy!! but you can be just as happy with 4k extra dollars in your pocket!!

 

Also, wouldn't the added air flowing in from the crack add temp to the combustion area?

 

Welcome back Brian, even if temporarily as you please.

Would a website make it easier for you to collect victims or would that make the dart board on your back too much larger?
I'll wager tTere are several talented webmasters here that might help you if asked.

 

Some of what I am about to say is experiential and some theoretical:

Anything that slows down the exhaust gas flow(muffler,catalytic converter, or even long runs where exhaust cools) produces a standing resonance wave in the opposite direction of the main flow(reversion wave). IF!!!!!...their is any metallic erosion from cheap header material, or breakdown of catalytic converter material these particulates can actually get caught up in this reversion wave. Hence, if you did an analysis of an engine(set for all out performance) that had these issues you would most likely find thru a lab test some of this particulate material in the combustion area, and in some extreme cases even up into the intake(all of this aided of course by a radical int/exh cam overlap)...
Where the cam overlap is extreme and there is sufficient exhaust restriction(back pressure), deteoration of the exhaust system can lead to engine failure....that is why I would suspect it to be more severe in a 355 with a radical overlap and fixed cam timing, but had thought by Ferrari going with atleast variable exhaust timing in the 360 that this would not be as much of a problem.

The amount of outside air drawn in from a cracked header is something I haven't addressed.....but, it would appear that any air drawn in would occur in the primary exhaust flow thereby upsetting the actual O2 level measured by the pre cat O2 sensor downstream. With an inaccurate measurement, the ECU would go into a timing/fuel calculation that is not representative of actual combustion conditions. Couple this with superheated exhaust(basically O2 deficient) being partially recycled into the combustion area(due to cam overlap and standing resonance wave), and you have a problem that starts to add up for each re-occuring combustion stroke(diminishing combustion efficiency). I do not know the degree of effect on cylinder combustion or exhausted fluid temps.

I'm sure that not everyone will agree with these conclusions.....so what are your theories and experiences??

 

That did happen to a 360 motor but not this one.

I have a considerable investment in developing the evidence and proving it sufficiently to extract large sums from Ferrari. Sorry but that information will remain mine for my and my clients benefit. It is very problematic though when the cars have aftermarket exhausts. Ferrari meant it when they said they would not honor warranty on modified cars. They are playing hardball and this is the outcome of not believing them.

I will say the physics of the problem has not really been touched upon here. I will also say a big problem with 355 is that stupid bypass system. Anyone disabling it and keeping it open is crazy and just pulling the pin on a grenade with a fuse of unknown length.

 

New to the forum. Have read some earlier threads and would just like to say that is nice to see that Brian is back on the forum. Welcome back Brian!

Kerry
2001 360 Modena Sweden

 

LOL......didn't you guys hear? THIS year they've got all the problems & bugs worked-out, all except the important & expensive ones.

The manifolds WILL go bad, FNA won't cover it, people will continue buying every Ferrari ever made (at a premium) and Italian life goes on. Build a bridge, you know the rest.

I hear Larini and a few other manufacturers are making really nice aftermarket manifolds that last and cost a fraction the price. It is what it is guys, if you're gonna get bent over this sort of thing, best not own a Ferrari. Doesn't make it right, just putting things in perspective.

Good to read Brian again...I heard you got nailed in some bizarre brothel accident?

 

Please note that FoS sold me that exhaust and installed it in my Modena and then in what's now your car. At NO TIME did they say it would invalidate warranty. Fact.

Tim

 

I do hope so - I was referring to the new one

As always Brian, thanks for the insight,

But, I thought the "courts" had addressed this issue - As long as the replacement meets "spec", fitting it can not invalidate warranty....

And, he purchased the replacement from a dealer! - As has been said, only Ferrari (and especially FNA?) could hope to get away with this BS.

IMHO

Cheers,
Ian

 

Can any one recomend what aftermarket manifolds to go for on my Stradale? I was talking to Tubi and they were saying you can get 20bhp+ from fitting there headers? My headers are fine and dont need replasing as yet but was wanting to change them purly for more power to go along with the Hyper-Flows I fitted at the start of the year. Has any one done this on a Stradale eather with the Tubi or any other manufactures?

 

Fabspeed- forum sponsor makes them. Anyone have them ?
I would like to hear from someone that has them. HP difference? Quality?
Hunter

 

Hey,

I don't know if I have any cracks but my car should be at Brians place real soon, so I guess we'll see. However, I think he's "hinting" at the problem above - "the physics of the problem hasn't been touched upon here".....I certainly respect Brian's decision to keep the information "quiet", but this is potentially a *huge* issue.... I fail to see how FNA can deny a claim under federal emissions law, regardless of any after market muffler installation (especially one performed at a dealer!).

And the simplistic approach of "bend over and accept it" (and/or install 3rd party headers etc) is simply wrong IMHO - Can you imagine the class action suit that would result if, for example, Toyota Camry's had their headers fall apart after ~10K miles? Just because FNA say "get lost" doesn't mean we've got to roll over and accept it (Does it?)

As always, just my 02c,
Cheers,
Ian

 

Hi Rifledriver-

Thanks again for your input. Can you give me your opinion in regards to the exhaust on my 360 which is the factory challenge stradale with the valves open by disconnecting the vacuum hoses.

Is this any more risky if the valves are opened at low revs? (the vacuum lines operate the valves and open at 4500 rpm)

 

Just had my 2005 430 w/12K miles in for it's annual. Dealer found both manifolds just beginning to leak. This was actually a relief since the warranty ends in a week. I have been told the new headers are a new design made by a new supplier. Hopefully that will solve the problem. Right now, there are no replacement manifolds in NA but a boatload is on the way. Sounds like they will need them! I think a number of 355 owners tried and failed to get relief under the emissions warranty. I don't know the facts of the cases. Bear in mind Brian (welcome back) is in CA which has stiffer state regs. If memory serves, it was not long ago that FNA announced that aftermarket exhaust parts will void warranties. There are some good reasons for this though the cynic in me wonders if it was mainly to avoid paying for new manifolds.

Dave

 

Can you find out when Ferrari started using the new header design made by the new supplier. Thanks.