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Electrical Advice needed for Radio Installation in 308 GT4

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by robertgarven, Feb 4, 2009.

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  1. sclja

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    #51 sclja, Apr 16, 2009
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  2. robertgarven

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    #52 robertgarven, Apr 16, 2009
    Scott,

    You have to bear with me since I am no expert, I feel kind of scared hooking straight on to the ignition switch. Is there any complications that might arise by doing that. I found a fuse #4 on the left fuse panel that is a 16A fuse and powers only the rear defroster, could I use one of your piggyback connectors to hook on there? If I did that should I change the fuse. I know you do this for a living but since I am so ignorant in this subject I am extremely paranoid and just dont want to do anything that would fry my harness, ignition etc. The line you are suggesting on the ignition, which colored wire is it and what does that wire normally power? Sorry for so many questions.
     
  3. sclja

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    #53 sclja, Apr 17, 2009
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    The rear defrost fuse should be fine to connect to as it is on ignition and as I said before the red wire (acc) on the kenwood draws minimal power so you dont have to worry about upgrading fuses on the acc.

    Scott
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  4. robertgarven

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    #54 robertgarven, Apr 19, 2009
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    Scott,

    Not only have you got some good advertising (here) you have made me wish I worked at your place, those are some nice pics I like the 512 and the 288 GTO!!!

    I finally got the center console out, which took all day. I was careful not to mess up too much but boy is that a hassle! I have a question the old JVC came with a 2x2" box that the pos and neg wires ran through I assume it was some kind of transformer or noise reduction unit should i use it, you can see a picture of it taped to the front of the console in one of the pics below? It also had a inline fuse which the new unit does not, Im thinking of putting that in there what do you think? I also noticed something weird my console is made of black plastic not fiberglass, like the front console cover or the door panels, very weird as in other threads the console is fiberglass, but this is plastic another weird quirk, there is a piece of masking tape with the assembly number on it 410!!

    Rob
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  5. jimshadow

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    #55 jimshadow, Apr 19, 2009
    Nice work! That center console is a MAJOR PITA!!!! Mine is currently out being re-covered. Did you unbolt the emergency brake to get the cover totally off? I had to do that, otherwise it was going to rip/break/tear. My console is fiberglass. Interesting that yours is plastic.

    This is a good time to re-grease your shifter mechanism if you have not already and to check the condition of the front shift linkage bushing since you have the center console out. You can also vacuum/clean out the 30+ years of dust that has accumulated beneath the console. :)

    JIM
     
  6. sclja

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    #56 sclja, Apr 19, 2009
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    You shouldnt need the filter as the new radio has it internally...I didnt send the capacitors as we only had one left in stock... so as soon as I get some more I can send them.

    Scott
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  7. robertgarven

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    #57 robertgarven, Apr 19, 2009
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    Scott nice 275 GTB4 in reflection

    Jim,
    I used your thread to take mine out. My hold up was the choke which I will not hook back up because I think It should not be used. I had to unhook the parrking brake at the clevis under the car. My AC tube was riveted to the inside of the console so a carefull drilling removed that. I just hope this all works, even on my JVC the lights would pulse a bit. I think the GT4 alternator puts out a very weak signal. I am being optomistic and hopefully with all your help Ill get it done.

    Peter R. said dont take my shifter apart unless I have a new bushing as his was very fragile and broke during removal. How much was Verell's and did it fit???

    Rob
     
  8. jimshadow

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    #58 jimshadow, Apr 20, 2009
    Robert,

    The Delrin Shift Bushings were $76.90 when I bought them for the pair. They are pricey. If your car is shifting good, you may want to wait. I was told that it doesn't take much to mis-align the shift forks. I'm not sure if proactively replacing these would throw things out of alignment or not. Its just such a PITA to get that console off....thats what I was thinking.
    There is really nothing that would break taking the shifter apart, unless you try to remove the lower (plastic) cup on the shift lever.

    The choke lever was a B*tch to get off for me too. My cable actually broke at the connection, so mine now can't be used. (I actually am one of the few who used his choke and found it very useful in cold weather starts to keep it idling)
    The EBrake comes off very easily with the 4 bolts at the base of the handle. You have to swing it out of the way as one of the holes is hook shaped vs. a true hole.

    Good luck in this project. I have no use for a radio as my car is very loud from the X-OST. I would have to play it at high levels to get any good sound. I use my IPod for long trips. :)

    JIM
     
  9. robertgarven

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    #59 robertgarven, Apr 21, 2009
    Scott and all,

    What size wire should I use to tap into the fuse box? I guess I mean what is the stock wire size. I have 16 gauge wire for the speakers and all the wires coming out of the head unit wiring harness are 18 gauge are less?
     
  10. robertgarven

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    #60 robertgarven, Apr 21, 2009
    It looks like there is an extra tab on the fuse box for #4 for the thermatic window. I think I am going to tie in there. Scott, it also says that you need an inline fuse near the radio. My other on had one so I think I will just hook it in there just to be safe. The radio has a 10 amp fuse and the fuse box has a 15 amp fuse. What should I put in the fuse holder? The WSM says 5 amp, what do you guys think I should use there???

    Rob
     
  11. sclja

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    #61 sclja, Apr 22, 2009
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    I think 2 fuses are enough... Robert. The extra connection at the window fuse will be fine... The wire size for the acc 12v power could be 20ga and it wouldnt matter as there is probably no more than a 50ma load on this line (very very little) so if you have 18 ga that will be fine. We were having a rough one today and we had a 550 maranello in the shop...

    Scott
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  12. robertgarven

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    #62 robertgarven, Apr 26, 2009
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    Well Friends,

    I not sure how much simpler this could get. I cut the hole like Scott said. I used P. B. wiring diagram and tapped into the rear defroster at the fuse box, (it even had a unused tab). I spent hours crimping and marking the factory and Kenwood unit leads. I hooked yellow memory wire hooked to the factory radio leads and one used ground, hooked to the same place as all the fuses and relays (see picture).

    Once again turned key, stereo worked and sounded great. Started the car and at first the radio said that there was a short some where (which there isn't) maybe from having the two power leads connected in two different places? Then I reset the unit, started the car and got the same GGGGGGRRRRRR GGGGRRRRRRRR GGGGGRRRRR that I got with the sub woofer. I am at wits end, tomorrow to try salvage all the time I have spent I will try to attach the filter thing that came with the JVC. I feel bad as I cut bigger holes in my doors, removed a perfectly fine period (but bad sounding head unit). Now I have nothing to show for all this but pain.

    If anyone has any suggestion let me know, tomorrow i will unplug the memory wire and try to run the car with the box thing in between the power and ground like it was before to see if it is any better.


    Rob

    Oh by the way It took 8 hours to get the console out and five minutes to get it back in with the choke cable (which I have never used) disconnected. I also thought i would never have to take it out again so I removed cleaned and replaced the gear lever (which was easy) I thought I was losing it after so much pain with this stupid stereo
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  13. robertgarven

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    #63 robertgarven, Apr 26, 2009
    Dear Friends,

    I have good and bad news the good news is the kenwood KDC-MP342U is installed and sounds great 22 watts RMSx4 and sound unbelievable from the 6" Boston Acoustics Door Speakers and 6x9 Boston Acoustics speakers I mounted in shallow boxes behind the seats.

    The bad news is the stereo only works with the engine off......

    Here is what I tried
    1. Red power wire to fuse #4 rear defroster, Yellow Memory wire to Factory radio wire, ground to factory fusebox & relay ground point. Unit does not work unless you turn the ignition switch to ACC. It also goes off when you turn the starter until the engine starts. Result yesterday I got lots of ignition noise toady the unit says "Protect" which the manual says that the speaker wire has a short circuit which it doesn't. I spent hours crimping, marking checking and rechecking the wires. Also it works perfectly when the engine is off or the ignition is on ACC.

    2. I hooked both red and yellow wires to the factory radio power wire, same "Protect" warning.

    3. I hooked the box that I assume was a filter in between the power and ground wires, same "Protect" warning.

    4. I hooked both red and yellow wires to the power lead of the filter box and the ground to the ground wires, same "Protect" warning. I hooked this up to the factory grey wires, and to the #4 fuse wire, same "Protect" warning.

    5. I hooked both red & yellow wires to the #4 fuse, same "Protect" warning.

    6. I hooked up a new ground wire from the passenger seat rail, same "Protect" warning.

    I am at a complete loss the unit worked every time with the engine off or with the ignition switch turned to ACC. I cleaned up my tools and decided to ask again for any help or suggestions. I am wondering since the powwer antenna and the radio or on the same circuit if that is what is causing the short circuit. I also know that even if I got the uit to work I would have the horrible static noise.

    Rob
    depressed and confused
     
  14. Brian Harper

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    #64 Brian Harper, Apr 26, 2009
    The manual says PROTECT means that there is a short in the speaker wire, but it sounds like you haven't addressed any speaker wires in your attempts to fix it. Or did I miss it? I would measure the resistance of each speaker as seen from the stereo. You should see 4 or 8 ohms. I know this probably means pulling the console again, but you'll be getting very good at it! The speaker wires do flex everytime the door is opened, so they do have the possibility to wear/break. Or perhaps a PO hijacked a wire somewhere. A volt/ohm meter will tell you if the head unit is wrong or not.
     
  15. robertgarven

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    #65 robertgarven, Apr 27, 2009
    I am no electrical expert and am having a real hard time with this but, when I turn the car off or hook up the power to the factory always on the unit works great all the way up to max volume with no "Protect" warning its only when the cars ignition circuit is activated it shows a short. I used all new wires and as you can see by my gear lever photo I takes lots of time and am very meticulous. If there was some kind of short wouldn't the unit give the same warning straight from the battery??????

    Rob

    BTW Thank you for your reply I need all the help i can get. I rigged it so I can get to all the wires without removing the console, unfortunately I think there is something in this antiquated wiring that does not work well with the modern unit. I wish I had never taken the other one out now........... but ist sounded so bad and this ones sounds so good until you turn the switch!
     
  16. sclja

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    #66 sclja, Apr 27, 2009
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    HI Robert, I wish you were closer to san diego as I would like to help you with you stereo.... The next test I would like you to do is to run a wire straight from the battery + to both the red and yellow wires coming from the kenwood deck... Leave the ground connected o the seat rail and start up the car and see if this fixes the problem... The car's battery acts as a filter and this might fix the protect code from coming up on the kenwood. Dont give up as we will get it figured out.........

    Scott
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  17. Brian Harper

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    #67 Brian Harper, Apr 27, 2009
    It seems unlikely, but there are situations where turning on the ignition could cause a short (or other undesireable condition) in the speaker wires. It looks like you did not run new speaker wires to the doors, correct? If one of the speaker wires is shorted somewhere to a switched circuit, then it is possible that you would have this situation only when the ignition is on. This does seem unlikely, but based your info from the manual and your symptoms, well, it does point this way. Again, I would use an Ohm meter from the head unit to the speakers and see what it reads, both ignition on and off. If it changes or isn't very close across all (four?) speakers, then you do have an issue. If it never changes and is consistent, then at least you know and can move on. Sometimes things that are wrong are obvious. If the manual says this is the problem, it seems reasonable to at least get it out of the way as the potential source of the problem.
     
  18. cgperry

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    #68 cgperry, Apr 28, 2009
    Robert -

    I can't see in your F-List or F-Chat posts that you replaced the speaker wiring at any time. While I don't think that the speaker wiring would be bad, there were several wiring schemes on older cars that could cause the problems you are speaking of. I have never worked on a GT4 so I don't know if they apply.

    Some older cars used a common negative for each pair of speakers, meaning that they each had their own positive and then they shared a negative back to the head unit. While you may see two separate negatives at the head unit, there's no guarantee that they are independent all the way back to the speakers.

    In some really old cars, the car chassis was the negative for the speaker wires.

    This worked fine in older head units where there was a single sided power amplifier in the head unit. However, newer units like your Kenwood have two amplifiers for each speaker. They are wired out of phase and operate in a push-pull configuration to send more power to the speaker than you could otherwise get from just 12-volts with no switching power supply. These amps are intolerant of common ground or chassis ground configurations because you are essentially shorting two amplifiers to each other or to ground under those conditions.

    As to why it only happens with the car running, I have two guesses. One is that one of the power leads you tapped into is hot under some circumstances and ground (rather than open) under others. This can only be verified with a decent multimeter. The other is that when you start the car, you move from battery voltage (around 12.5 in a healthy battery) to alternator voltage (around 14.4v in a healthy alternator). This pumps up the power output to the speakers by as much as 15% and may be enough to put the amp into Protect if you have a bad situation that is on the border of the protect trigger with the car off.

    I would get your multimeter and set it on ohms first. Check each speaker line (between pos & neg) and you should get roughly 4 ohms (+/- 20% would be normal depending on brand of speaker). Next, take the meter and check every individual speaker wire lead (positive or negative) against the leads of all other speakers (pos & neg) one pair at a time. Under no circumstances should you read anything but open circuit (infinite resistance) between legs that aren't going to the same speaker. If you do, that's a problem. Let me know which leads show resistance to which other legs and we'll go from there. Next, check every speaker wire leg (pos & neg) against the car chassis. You shouldn't read anything but open circuit anywhere. If you do, that's a problem.

    -- charles
     
  19. Peter

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    #69 Peter, Apr 28, 2009
    But all vehicles when running are circulating anywhere between 13.5 to 14.5 volts in their electrical systems, so this should be within the operating parameters of the speakers/radio (they would be designed/engineered to work at those levels)...

    Rob, is the "Protect" term used solely to identify a short in the speaker circuit, or can it be also used to identify other symptoms/problems? Since the sound is fine with the engine off, maybe the problem is with your alternative power supply through the ex-defroster circuit that's causing something funny to happen and making the radio say: "Protect".
     
  20. robertgarven

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    #70 robertgarven, Apr 29, 2009
    I appreciate and will try all suggestions this saturday. I am thinking that my main problem is with my solid core ignition wires. If you check out other thread in the 308 section I could use some advice there from some electrical experts. The interference these wires put out is extreme and even though I think it makes the car run great. I am going to try a set of some kind of resistor wire, OEM, Kingsborne, Magnecor to see if that helps. I have a second battery 2 feet from my car how would i hook up the stereo to it could I just use the pos & neg without any ground in the car????

    Rob
    very grateful for all the suggestions
     
  21. Peter

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    #71 Peter, Apr 29, 2009
    Speak with Kingsborne first for their Ferrari 308 set (http://www.kingsbornewires.com/category.sc?categoryId=22). They do not identify what wire they use for this set. They market bulk wire as either copper core and "Mag-wire wound" (whatever that is), so check first what you'd get from them and if it's RF friendly.

    I'd certainly ground that second battery to some chassis point, instead of wiring it up directly. Why would you do this anyways? If you're concerned about killing the battery that's already in the car, just hook up your charger to the battery while you do "test runs"...
     
  22. sclja

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    #72 sclja, Apr 29, 2009
    just ground the battery to the chassis (seat bolt) of the car... I will be on a ferrari run this weekend so I probably wont be able to get back to you till sunday eve....Good luck Robert! I know wee will get it figured out. If not you are coming to SD !

    Scott
     
  23. synchro

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    #73 synchro, Apr 30, 2009
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    Excellent idea and you could connect to the original stereo's AUX port


    For the head unit to be shut off by the ignition key, you'll need to connect to some electrical device that is controlled by the ignition. Sometimes folks use a variety of locations, but you've got a great one at the connector side of the ignition.
    See John Corbani's diagram of the rear electrical connections to the ignition key:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173384


    See you Sat Scott
    -Scott
     
  24. robertgarven

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    #74 robertgarven, May 17, 2009
    I want to thank all of you for your help. I have been busy working on this and think I got it fixed. It seems as I suspected the solid core ignition wires were creating such an electrical interference that ones i installed the new Magncor 7mm Supersport wires the head unit works great. It has a USB port and even the AM reception is better than my daily driver. I will post some pics soon, and some more details. I hooked the yellow constant wire to the GT4 radio grey (2) wires and the red power to the rear window defroster with a 8amp fuse inline. Unfortunately one of my caps had a stripped thread but luckily I had 2 repro caps which I used, regretfully as my other ones with the exception of the screw was perfect. This has taken a long time and I once again want to Thank everyone who helped me solve this!

    Sincerely Rob
     
  25. robertgarven

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    #75 robertgarven, Jun 15, 2009
    I think I was premature in thinking my stereo was working OK. Here is what is happening after 15 minutes of driving. The stereo starts very distorting badly? Also when you stop and take out the USB flash memory stick is hot. No blown fuses, but I am wondering if the Stereo is somehow not getting enough power from the battery and alternator? I am running the same Kenwood head unit in my Rodeo and driving a set of 6.5 Boston acoustics SX components in front and in the back a set of BA 4" inch and a wedge box with two 10 woofers and a set of dome tweeters and have not had any problems and the head unit blasts very loud at 3/4 volume.

    Just to remind everyone what i did on the Ferrari :

    Kenwood KDC-MP342U 22 watts x 4

    6.5" Boston Acoustics SL full range (4 ohm) in front
    6x9" Boston Acoustics Slfull range (4 ohm) in small boxes behind the seats and a set of 4" Alpine's SPS-400 (4 ohm) in the rear console run parallel. I have a set of bass blockers on the 4" at 900 hz.
    Kenwood yellow wire to Ferrari always on radio wire
    Kenwood red wire to fuse block rear window defroster with 8 amp fuse inline

    I am getting very little bass even out of the 6x9" BA without noticeable distortion. However the highs and mids are very loud, however once again after driving about 10-15 minutes the amps starts dramatically distorting. I know Scott said the Kenwood head does not like a 2 ohm load but I am using the same load in my Rodeo on the rears with great sound and no problems etc. Do you think I am overloading the amp, or it is not getting enough power?

    Im am sorry to keep bugging all of you but i cannot figure out what is going on. i would like to get this sorted out and am still thinking of getting another small subwoofer for under the seat for more bass, I cant believe i sold the Blaupunkt unit on ebay for change, but there is also a Boss audio 10" powered unit that i think might fit under the seat. I am looking forward to doing my major service something I can at least figure out!!

    As always thanks in advance for any help or suggestions
     
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