why do both ferrrari and porsche have a black stallion on their shields? who was firs

[ignacio]

thanks for all the replies. the only item left unanswered is which company adopted the stallion first?

[riverflyer]

Ignacio, that is amazing, almost like you "chanelled" that post for me. I was looking at the two crests in my garage last night and had never realized how similar they really were. Then I wondered whose came first and even mentioned that to my girl. Thanks for getting the answers before I even asked!! John

[Aureus]

Originally Posted by ignacio

thanks for all the replies. the only item left unanswered is which company adopted the stallion first?

Ferrari, in the 1920s I believe.

Porsche didn't exist as a car manufacturer till 1948.

Either way, Ferrari used a stallion as its logo before Porsche cars came into existence.

That aside however, the mere dates don't even answer that question. Porsche uses the stallion because it is the symbol of Stuttgart, hell Stuttgart the name is even on the Porsche logo. And the Stuttgart symbol goes back somewhere closer to 1000 years than 80 years.

Ferrari uses it... well I don't think we can know that since to me the fact that the Bacarra horse is so different from the Ferrari horse makes the claim that it honors Bacarra sound like a publicity sound byte almost.

[EVartanian]

Vivere Ferrari....whooohooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

[parkerfe]

To bad Ferrari didn't copy the reliability and performance of Porsche along with its symbol!

[staceman]

THIS SHOULD HELP CLARIFY THINGS . . .

Excerpted From :
Porsche ~ The Road From Zuffenhausen ©2003
By Dennis Adler

Pg. 93 ~ 95

With the name Porsche name being spoken in more places and in more languages, by 1952 the first steps were taken toward creating a Porsche emblem or coat of arms. “Max Hoffman had been urging us to do this for some time,” recalled Ferry. “He cited the example of the English and said what beautiful emblems they had and that we should produce something similar. He considered this important for the American market. He made the suggestion to me one day while we were lunching together in New York, and I quickly sketched out a piece of heraldry on a napkin. I said to Hoffman as I was drawing, ‘If all you want is a coat of arms, you can get one from us!’”
Ferry then sketched the crest of the House of Wurttemberg and in the middle put the coat of arms of the city of Stuggart: rampant horse, above which he placed the Porsche name. (Enzo Ferrari had also used the rampant horse for his personal emblem since 1923, when the Countess Paolina Baracca presented the Stuttgart coat of arms to Ferrari after his victory in the Circuit of Savio race.) Upon his return to Stuttgart, Ferry gave the napkin to Erwin Komenda and asked him to draw a clean copy. “We then took the design to the state government and the City of Stuttgart and requested that they authorize the design for use as our emblem The authorities raised no objections, and so from 1953 onward Porsche cars bore their own emblem, to the great pleasure of all concerned,” said Ferry. Today, both Porsche and Ferrari still use the rampant horse as part of their company emblem. . . .

THUS IT APPEARS THAT ENZO WAS USING HIS SHIELD SOME THIRTY YEARS EARLIER THAN PORSCHE.

[Testacojones]

They should of gotten the look of the horse from an Andalucian Spanish horse, they are the most beautifull and the best horses all around.

[Smiles]

Of course, the original Porsche symbol was a swastika!

[LopeAlong]

Having spent most of my life in the horse biz (furry four legged variety), this post is very interesting. What I find odd is that both symbols show a REARING horse. It is not "prancing" (where the heck did that start?). A "prance" would be considered an elevated trot, meaning the two diagonal legs would be hitting the ground at the same time - a two beat gait, ON THE GROUND. Yes, you could call both "rampant" - which at it's closest meaning is "unbridled" or "wild". But no matter how flowery the words, they are REARING!!! If you wanted to further analyse and compare them to Classical Dressage standards they would not even be doing a proper levade or capriole.

Testacojones, the Andalusian is pretty, but for power and breath-taking beauty, I'll take a black Friesian with flying mane, tail, and feathers, any day!

Sorry for the personal rant. Consider this a horse-guy's equivalent to someone suggesting their Mustang/Camaro/Supra/etc. was just as cool as your F-car!
Jim

[dwhite]

Because they wanted to save the Bull for another Italian automaker. So people could not say I can't take all their bullsh--, unfortunately their was a flaw in the logic as it has been reported there have been those who say I can't take their horsesh--.

[ignacio]

Originally Posted by Testacojones

They should of gotten the look of the horse from an Andalucian Spanish horse, they are the most beautifull and the best horses all around.

the silhuette(sp?) of both models appears to me to be an arabian horse--the antecedant of the andalucian horse.

i believe that "rampante" refers to a horse that is wild and free (like a ferrari). the specific posture of rearing on the back legs is the artistic representation of that wild nature.

[Ken]

Originally Posted by ASFJr

Over the years, Enzo Ferrari must have given some thought to the implications of this, because the logo on all his cars from 1933 on, shows the horse standing on one hind leg with an uplifted or "rampant" tail."

The first production Ferrari was 1947 (?). You're saying Enzo had the logo on his race cars?

Ken

[Testacojones]

Originally Posted by ignacio

the silhuette(sp?) of both models appears to me to be an arabian horse--the antecedant of the andalucian horse.

i believe that "rampante" refers to a horse that is wild and free (like a ferrari). the specific posture of rearing on the back legs is the artistic representation of that wild nature.

The arabian horse is very different to a andalucian horse, the andalucian is big and powerful with a very thick neck. Also the arabic is not the antecedant of the andalucian, the andalucian was even a famous and a favorite when the Roman empire and this is proven even when they found their way to coins back then. The arabs didnt reach Spain until the year 711 or about 300 years after the Roman empire. What it is true is that about every horse in the world now have some arabic horse blood in them, but the arabic horse is the only one that it is completely pure. I have an arabic and an andalucian.

[jmillard308]

Originally Posted by Ken

The first production Ferrari was 1947 (?). You're saying Enzo had the logo on his race cars?

Ken

Yes Ken -
Enzo had a racing team from the early 30's - Scuderia Ferrari.
They primarily raced Alfa Romeo, both as private entrants and as the official factory team. But they also raced other stuff, including motor bikes!
John

[BigTex]

That's the point......Enzo Ferrari used the crest, once it was offered on the ALFA ROMEO racing cars........

The only other point I've read is that Baracca, who was based in the cavalry, (that was the original branch responsible for aircaft, even before they were armed, as recon,) started using it as his symbol AFTER shooting down an enemy plane, landing and to confirm the 'kill', cut the logo from the dead pilots plane.

The enemy plane was from............Stutgart!

Would that make sense???? Not sure.......

It did preceed P cars by twenty years or so.

The only time a horse raises it's tail like that is to take a dump, which Ferraris are legendary in repeating, at great expense, so when you see that tail up....LOOK OUT! LOL!

[275 GTB]

Originally Posted by staceman

THIS SHOULD HELP CLARIFY THINGS . . .

Excerpted From :
Porsche ~ The Road From Zuffenhausen ©2003
By Dennis Adler

Pg. 93 ~ 95

With the name Porsche name being spoken in more places and in more languages, by 1952 the first steps were taken toward creating a Porsche emblem or coat of arms. “Max Hoffman had been urging us to do this for some time,” recalled Ferry. “He cited the example of the English and said what beautiful emblems they had and that we should produce something similar. He considered this important for the American market. He made the suggestion to me one day while we were lunching together in New York, and I quickly sketched out a piece of heraldry on a napkin. I said to Hoffman as I was drawing, ‘If all you want is a coat of arms, you can get one from us!’”
Ferry then sketched the crest of the House of Wurttemberg and in the middle put the coat of arms of the city of Stuggart: rampant horse, above which he placed the Porsche name. (Enzo Ferrari had also used the rampant horse for his personal emblem since 1923, when the Countess Paolina Baracca presented the Stuttgart coat of arms to Ferrari after his victory in the Circuit of Savio race.) Upon his return to Stuttgart, Ferry gave the napkin to Erwin Komenda and asked him to draw a clean copy. “We then took the design to the state government and the City of Stuttgart and requested that they authorize the design for use as our emblem The authorities raised no objections, and so from 1953 onward Porsche cars bore their own emblem, to the great pleasure of all concerned,” said Ferry. Today, both Porsche and Ferrari still use the rampant horse as part of their company emblem. . . .

THUS IT APPEARS THAT ENZO WAS USING HIS SHIELD SOME THIRTY YEARS EARLIER THAN PORSCHE.

The Italian WW1 Ace Francesco Barraca used the prancing horse on his aircraft during WW1 and was subsequently KIA.

The "story" I read today was: Mr Enzo Ferrari asked Barraca's Aunt what he could paint on his car and she suggested a prancing horse".

Could this be true? supplemented by her presentation of the Stuttgart Coat of Arms??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...i/FBaracca.jpg

[Forexpreneur]

I am a decendent of the Eberhardt's who ruled the Baden-Württemberg Bundesländer which Stuttgart is the capital of. What's the point? Dang it I would not have to work so hard getting rich today if we weren't kicked out by the Catholic Church back in the mid 1700's. I could be collecting royalties from Porsche for using our horse. LOL.

[Duane_Estill]

If it were not for Alfa Romeo.....there would likely be no Ferrari. The scuderia (literally 'stable') was started in 1929 by Enzo Ferrari, professional driver Tadini, and wealthy fiber merchants Alfredo and Augosto Caniato. The first successes came with the 8C 2300. These cars carried the prancing horse emblem. Go to youtube and search for Nuvolari and Nurburgring, the Alfa he drove to that epic victory clearly displays the prancing horse. This program was very well known, and very well organized, and very profitable for Enzo himself...who purchased the largest house in Modena during these years. So..the first cars to wear the prancing horse emblem were not Ferraris, but Alfas in Ferrari's racing program, which, was, in fact, the Alfa-Romeo factory racing program, until 1938 after Ferrari left primarily as a result of personality conflicts with newly hired Spanish engineer Gobbato. In his own words...."I was sacked..." Alfa's hot and cold involvement in racing probably only fueled his desire to have a consistent presence in the racing world.

The story gets a little more complicated. Ferrari had to sign, essentially, a non-compete agreement with Alfa, that lasted for four years, in which Ferrari's name could not be used. He immediately formed Auto Avio Construzioni (AAC). They made one car, the 815, which used the Fiat 508 C as their starting point. (you didn't think he was going to use an Alfa did you?). The stock 508 used a 11000 cc four cylinder engine. Ferrari and the engineers took two of the four cylinder engines, cast a new 8 cylinder block, essently creating their own V8!! The body work was done by Touring. This car did not carry the prancing horse, as that was associated with his name. The 815 was also the last time for several years that Enzo would work on cars....AAC did many different things during WW2, and was profitable, Ferrari was flush with cash coming out of WW2, primarily from government contracts to produce machine tools and 'oil-driven grinding machines.'

But back to the story! The first actual Ferrari car to actually wear the prancing horse occured in 1947 with the 125S or the 166 Sport Corsa. So Ferrari's iteration of the prancing horse was used on racing cars well before it was ever used on an actual car with his name on it. History doesn't exist in a vacuum.

The answer to the question is....Ferrari, but not on a Ferrari car, it was on an Alfa Romeo.

A few things missing from the discussion of the "Baracca" connection. Enzo's older brother, Alfredo, was in the same fighter squadron as Francesco Baracca, whose mother, the Countess Paolina Baracca, gave the symbol to Enzo Ferrari. It was the symbol of Stuttgart. Baracca had shot down a German fighter plane which carried the symbol, so he used it on his plane. Or so the story goes. One could easily conjecture that some simple intuition might have figured into the development of the prancing horse shield too. Since scuderia is a stable, horses stay in stables, this particular symbol of a horse having sentimental significance for Enzo and Italians, but....I digress.

[BigTex]

815 was a V8, or straight eight????

[Duane_Estill]

The AAC 815 was a straight 8, my mistake.