Curvature of headlamps for Miura

[Spinto]

I know that the Carello headlamps for the Miura came in more and less pronounced curvature versions. Which curvature is correct for which cars?

Thanks in advance.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by Spinto

I know that the Carello headlamps for the Miura came in more and less pronounced curvature versions. Which curvature is correct for which cars?

Thanks in advance.

What variant of Miura do you have under consideration?

Please post pics of the headlamp options that you have.

[alberto]

Others may know more, but as far as I know, there are three headlight glass variants: clear glass, with no flutes; fluted deep dish; fluted shallow dish. By deep and shallow dish, I mean that one is slightly thicker (taller) in the middle section. It is a subtle difference, but one you can pick up if you look closely.

I assume this is what you mean by more or less curvature. I admit that I have not looked into the dates of the variations. Sorry I cannot help.

[Spinto]

Originally Posted by alberto

Others may know more, but as far as I know, there are three headlight glass variants: clear glass, with no flutes; fluted deep dish; fluted shallow dish. By deep and shallow dish, I mean that one is slightly thicker (taller) in the middle section. It is a subtle difference, but one you can pick up if you look closely.

I assume this is what you mean by more or less curvature. I admit that I have not looked into the dates of the variations. Sorry I cannot help.

My question concerns the two fluted options, one of which has a more pronounced curvature (i.e. is more convex) than the other. The car is a Miura S. What I am trying to establish is whether one arrangement of headlamp is more correct to a particular car, and if one arrangement is more valuable than the other.

The first photo is the flatter one, the 2nd is the more convex.

[joe sackey]

Very interesting.

Lets say you are faced with a Miura with non-matching sets of lenses, one more convex than the other, such as I have in the past (not at all uncommon, by the way). I would say that it would not be possible to determine which is correct without documented evidence (such as photos) from new. Note that the factory did not keep any such records, and random application was the production norm in the period, as being currently discussed on the Countach thread.

Here is 4170, a Miura P400S known to me to be unmodified. It has the more convex Carello lenses. But I am aware of other unmodified P400S with the flatter less convex lenses. Unless the lenses gave a different intensity or flow of lighting as required by the Transportation authorities of different countries the cars were being delivered to, I can only put it down to random application, and the quest to determine which is "correct for all P400S" is likely in vain, other than to be assured that they should be fluted and not clear. I would say that the correct lenses are the matching pair of the ones you can get!

[joe sackey]

By the way, by use of images of cars known to me to be unmodified, I have some evidence that fluted lenses were used from P400 to SV all across the production range. As if to make my earlier point, I also have evidence of random application of less and more convex lenses, used back-and-forth as time went on! Only at Lamborghini...

[Spinto]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

Very interesting.

Lets say you are faced with a Miura with non-matching sets of lenses, one more convex than the other, such as I have in the past (not at all uncommon, by the way). I would say that it would not be possible to determine which is correct without documented evidence (such as photos) from new. Note that the factory did not keep any such records, and random application was the production norm in the period, as being currently discussed on the Countach thread.

Here is 4170, a Miura P400S known to me to be unmodified. It has the more convex Carello lenses. But I am aware of other unmodified P400S with the flatter less convex lenses. Unless the lenses gave a different intensity or flow of lighting as required by the Transportation authorities of different countries the cars were being delivered to, I can only put it down to random application, and the quest to determine which is "correct for all P400S" is likely in vain, other than to be assured that they should be fluted and not clear. I would say that the correct lenses are the matching pair of the ones you can get!

Alright! With this in mind, I shouldn't feel bad about going one way or the other. Certainly it simplifies the search since these 850/Miura lights are difficult enough to find without making the distinction between the two forms of fluted lamp.

Many thanks for your help Mr. Sackey.

[hyenahf]

arent muira headlamps sourced from fiat 850 spyders?

[alberto]

Originally Posted by Spinto

My question concerns the two fluted options, one of which has a more pronounced curvature (i.e. is more convex) than the other. The car is a Miura S. What I am trying to establish is whether one arrangement of headlamp is more correct to a particular car, and if one arrangement is more valuable than the other.

The first photo is the flatter one, the 2nd is the more convex.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to describe. I can neither confirm nor deny if there was any rhime or reason to the madness of which one was used when. I do know that my Miura 1021 has the clear ones, because it was delivered to Switzerland and needed them to conform to the regulations at the time.

Not sure why the added the flutes to the outside lenses because they did not use naked bulbs behind these lenses, as you know they have a headlamp lens behind it. So you end up bending the light from the bulbs twice and I am willing to bet no one did it be design.

Alberto

[P400]

Hi Derek, If i remember correctly, you are working on 3850?
And i see, from your photos, that it does have one of each style fluted lense.

Paul Placzek of Sports & Classic in Australia can supply new hi curve lenses. He emailed VLG about this in October 2009.
"SPORTS AND CLASSIC CAR SERVICES" <sports@pacific.net.au>

not cheap at Australian$1200 per pair, but available

hope this helps
Craig

[xs10shl]

If these cars are original paint, then one thing which this thread does clear up for me is that Lamborghini did indeed paint the inner lip on the headlight surround satin black instead of body color (on at least some cars), as I've previously surmised.

[Spinto]

Originally Posted by P400

Hi Derek, If i remember correctly, you are working on 3850?
And i see, from your photos, that it does have one of each style fluted lense.

Paul Placzek of Sports & Classic in Australia can supply new hi curve lenses. He emailed VLG about this in October 2009.
"SPORTS AND CLASSIC CAR SERVICES" <sports@pacific.net.au>

not cheap at Australian$1200 per pair, but available

hope this helps
Craig

Craig,

Thanks for the tip. Yes, 3850 is our car, but as it turns out, I'm actually making the inquiry on behalf of two clients who both have cars with mismatched fluted headlamps and are entertaining a swap. We've already sourced "new" used headlamps for 3850 from Germany. If only we had something to affix them to, but this is a different story.

Derek

[Speedy2]

Originally Posted by Spinto

I know that the Carello headlamps for the Miura came in more and less pronounced curvature versions. Which curvature is correct for which cars?

Thanks in advance.

Reguarding which lense was fitted to which car I may have an answer for you. This information comes from Miura specialist Jeff Stephan. According to Jeff, as we've established, there were 3 variations; clear (for US delivered cars and any other countries that may have specific regulations), a fluted shallow dome lense and a fluted larger domed lense. These lenses were provided via Fiat. during their production of the 850's sometime in the 1970 production year the lenses supplied to lamborghini changed. To Jeff's knowledge a specific VIN is not available but he said that the changeover from the fluted shallow dome to the larger domed lense seemed to occur at the introduction of the series 2 Miura S. This would have included the SV's as well (Higher domed lense).

[alberto]

Originally Posted by Spinto

Craig,

If only we had something to affix them to, but this is a different story.

Derek

I may have a pair of buckets if you need something to attach the lenses to. I traded two full buckets with lenses and trim a few months ago. I believe I have two more, but they are only the buckets, no lens, no trim, and would have to be modified to work as they are for an 850. Brand new never used.

If you need the buckets, let me know and we'll work something out.

I am always looking for spare parts and to trade for parts. At the moment I am focused on finding a pair of the early (Altissimo) side marker lights (as used in the early Miura's) and a Ferrari Daytona (etc.) 2nd gear synchro.


Alberto

[P400]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

By the way, by use of images of cars known to me to be unmodified, I have some evidence that fluted lenses were used from P400 to SV all across the production range. As if to make my earlier point, I also have evidence of random application of less and more convex lenses, used back-and-forth as time went on! Only at Lamborghini...

But 4884 is modified with early fluted flat lenses, as it was supplied originally with the later hi dome glass. Maybe 4884 was smacked real hard and the headlight glass replaced? Or maybe the owner felt it might look better with P400 flat headlight glass ..?

Maybe i am looking at the wrong period photos? book jacket?

I think the early lenses are prefered as they look a little sleeker. A lot to be said for original P400 Miura design.

Craig

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by P400

But 4884 is modified with early fluted flat lenses, as it was supplied originally with the later hi dome glass. Maybe 4884 was smacked real hard and the headlight glass replaced? Or maybe the owner felt it might look better with P400 flat headlight glass ..?

Maybe i am looking at the wrong period photos? book jacket?

I think the early lenses are prefered as they look a little sleeker. A lot to be said for original P400 Miura design.

Craig

Craig:

The post of 4884's headlights was to illustrate "that fluted lenses were from P400 to SV all across the production range". That's all.

4884 has fortunately never been involved in any type of front end collision, and the current matching pair of fluted lenses were used because one of the original fluted lenses cracked.

[Speedy2]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

Craig:

The post of 4884's headlights was to illustrate "that fluted lenses were from P400 to SV all across the production range". That's all.

4884 has fortunately never been involved in any type of front end collision, and the current matching pair of fluted lenses were used because one of the original fluted lenses cracked.

This statement of the cracked lense bring up a interesting memory. A few years ago I traded Gary Bobilef a lense for some other Miura parts I needed. If memory serves me I believe it was for Mr. Sackey's car that was under restoration at the time. it was the lower profile lense. He told me at the time that the lense on the car was cracked.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by Speedy2

This statement of the cracked lense bring up a interesting memory. A few years ago I traded Gary Bobilef a lense for some other Miura parts I needed. If memory serves me I believe it was for Mr. Sackey's car that was under restoration at the time. it was the lower profile lense. He told me at the time that the lense on the car was cracked.

Sounds familiar!

[Spinto]

Originally Posted by alberto

I may have a pair of buckets if you need something to attach the lenses to. I traded two full buckets with lenses and trim a few months ago. I believe I have two more, but they are only the buckets, no lens, no trim, and would have to be modified to work as they are for an 850. Brand new never used.

If you need the buckets, let me know and we'll work something out.

I am always looking for spare parts and to trade for parts. At the moment I am focused on finding a pair of the early (Altissimo) side marker lights (as used in the early Miura's) and a Ferrari Daytona (etc.) 2nd gear synchro.


Alberto

Thanks for the offer Alberto but I was referring to the entire car when I said "something to attach the lamps to", not merely the buckets! It was my off-handed way of complaining about how long the bodywork is taking.

[alberto]

Originally Posted by Spinto

Thanks for the offer Alberto but I was referring to the entire car when I said "something to attach the lamps to", not merely the buckets! It was my off-handed way of complaining about how long the bodywork is taking.

LOL, I'm afraid I can't help you there. Stay patient. I am always amazed at how long these things take (and how much $$'s too).

Alberto