Driving Impressions

[Dr Who]

I’d like to see more discussion about driving these old bangers. Given the relative scarcity of Ferrari owners who are willing to lend me their cars for a vigorous test drive (a sample size of zero, actually), this makes it hard to follow the mantra of, “Drive it, before you fall in love with it.”

Moreover, I’m a driver, not a lover. I know that many of you get a lot of enjoyment wrenching, waxing and ogling the results over a cigar and Scotch. Sad to say, I don’t. Oh, I don’t mind spending some quality time doing a wax job every now and then. I’m pretty good about checking tire pressures and oil levels. But, beyond that, I just take the car to my main man and say, “fix it.”

To start the ball rolling, I’d like to share my thoughts on a recent romp through the country side where a buddy and I swapped off a 1998 Maranello and a 1967 330 GTC. The idea was not to do a head-to-head comparison, after all the Maranello has 30 years of development on the GTC. The goal was to see which car was more fun to drive.

The first impression of the GTC was very positive because it fits. I’m 6' 2," long waisted and fat. I can't even get into a 250 GTO or SWB. I barely fit in a 275. Daytonas can be tad snug, and you can furgitabout a Boxer.

But, just like Goldilocks , the GTC feels just right. The steering wheel tilts high enough so that it doesn’t hit the top of my fat thighs. I can pull the seat back up to the desired “sit and beg” position. After moving the seat forward a little bit, I can put my left elbow out the window, right hand on the wheel. Life is good.

Because I have never driven a GTC with a rebuilt transmission, I can’t say how smoothly the gearbox should work. But this car is a grand old dame who likes to take all things in her own good time. After she gets warmed up, she doesn’t require a double clutch on upshifts (although it doesn’t hurt on downshifts), but you soon learn to treat her like a lady and take your time while shifting.

The disc brakes, while good, are nothing like a modern car. Plus, it pays to remember that you’re driving on skinny tires. Late braking is not recommended or encouraged.

How does the car handle? Well, it takes some getting used to. For starters, you soon discover the reason for that big steering wheel. The steering ratios are a lot bigger than on a modern car. It is not necessary to muscle the car. But, like dancing a waltz, you have to take charge of the situation because the GTC responds best to direct inputs. You cannot make little subtle adjustments like in the Maranello. The car insists that you make up your mind about what you are going to do and then do it.

Imagine that you’re in 4th gear, doing about 70, and you’re coming up on a, say, 135 degree, left-hand curve on a two-lane road. What seems to work best is to brake hard while lining up on the right hand shoulder. (You probably aren’t driving aggressively enough to need a down shift; but if you were, this would be a great time to do one.) Then, aiming for a late apex (remember you're on a public road), you’d release the brakes, and give the wheel a good pitch to the left.

The initial result is massive understeer as the car seemingly wants to keep going straight (much to your dismay). Then, just as you start searching for the eject button, you feel the center of the car move quickly through you as it turns to the left and kicks the rear end out to the right. At this point, you’d be wise to counter steer to the right and get on the gas to straighten the grand lady out. Done nicely, you get a little bit of rear-wheel drift which helps to nicely pivot the car around.

It is really a thrill to pull off a sharp turn. In fact, I’d love to take this car to the track to explore its limits without having to worry about oncoming trucks, shinny pants bicyclists, and packs of Harleys doing 45 mph.

The major drawback to the GTC’s handling is that it doesn’t give the impression that you have a whole lot of options. Once you pitch the car into a turn, there is only one way in and out. The car tracks like a locomotive, once you understand the under/over steer trick. But the GTC doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence that you can change plans in the middle of the turn. Once it hunkers down and takes a set,it is hell bound for glory.

However, I’d love to hear from you old geezers out there. Am I doing this right, or have I got it all wrong? Once again, the car starts with heavy understeer that quickly transitions to oversteer. This may sound strange, but it is as if I can feel the center of gravity move from the front of the car through the middle and out the rear. It appeared natural (to me anyway) to crank the wheel one way and then to counter steer to offset the rear end coming around. Of course, getting on the power also helps to straighten the car out.

Indeed, driving the GTC makes me really appreciate those vintage racing nut jobs. I’ll never forget, a couple of years ago, seeing that guy from Brazil four-wheel drifting a 250 SWB as he powered out of the last sweeper at Moroso. Keep in mind that the track is roughly 50 feet wide at that point and has concrete barriers on both sides. Amazing. That guy must of had huevos the size of grapefruit! I wouldn’t have the nerve to try that in a $15,000 Spec Miata, must less a multi-million dollar, old banger, Ferrari.

So how did the GTC compare to the Maranello in the fun department? This might upset some of you; but, in my opinion, there is absolutely no comparison. The Maranello wins hands down. While the Shark is a lot heavier than the GTC, it is so easy to drive that the biggest problem is going too fast on public roads and having to make an involuntary contribution to the overall public welfare.

Please don’t misunderstand. Driving the old banger is a lot more engaging than the Shark. Just going down the road in the GTC demands your attention, but in a good way. Nailing shifts without a protest, priceless. Correctly doing the under/over steer dosey do through a corner, priceless. Watching the oil and water gauges stay in the dead middle of their range, priceless. Listening to everything working as it should, priceless.

But when it came time to drive home, I called for the Maranello keys in a heartbeat. You just can’t deny 30 years of improvement. As Led Zep sang:

It’s been a long time since I rock and rolled,
It’s been a long time since I did the stroll.
Ooh, let me get it back, let me get it back,
Let me get it back, baby, where I come from.
It’s been a long time, been a long time,
Been a long lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely time.

Dale


Picture captions:

1. GTC at rest.
2. Pit stop
3. Fits fine.
4. GTC interior.
5. GTC doing what it does best
6. Shark on the loose.
7. Still banging after all these years.
.

[Christian.Fr]

very well, glad to read, impressions and pics it s just marvellous, a travell
in Ferrari world. Thanks Dr Who.

[donv]

Great writeup. Interesting that for me, the fun factor is reversed. I find my 456 to be a fantastic machine for travelling, or daily driving, or just about any sort of transportation. It's lots of fun, but...

My 365, with all it's quirks and noises and strange ergonomics, now that's FUN!

Originally Posted by Dr Who

So how did the GTC compare to the Maranello in the fun department? This might upset some of you; but, in my opinion, there is absolutely no comparison. The Maranello wins hands down. While the Shark is a lot heavier than the GTC, it is so easy to drive that the biggest problem is going too fast on public roads and having to make an involuntary contribution to the overall public welfare.

Please don’t misunderstand. Driving the old banger is a lot more engaging than the Shark. Just going down the road in the GTC demands your attention, but in a good way. Nailing shifts without a protest, priceless. Correctly doing the under/over steer dosey do through a corner, priceless. Watching the oil and water gauges stay in the dead middle of their range, priceless. Listening to everything working as it should, priceless.

But when it came time to drive home, I called for the Maranello keys in a heartbeat. You just can’t deny 30 years of improvement. As Led Zep sang:

[Scott.Mac]

Originally Posted by donv

Great writeup. Interesting that for me, the fun factor is reversed. I find my 456 to be a fantastic machine for travelling, or daily driving, or just about any sort of transportation. It's lots of fun, but...

My 365, with all it's quirks and noises and strange ergonomics, now that's FUN!

Exactly, perhaps the good Dr should try a Honda next, seems more suitable for his style

[xs10shl]

Originally Posted by synchro

Exactly, perhaps the good Dr should try a Honda next, seems more suitable for his style

LOL! "Fun" is of course entirely up to the tastes of the individual.

I think everyone will agree that one simply cannot drive a 40 year old car with the same degree of flexibility as a modern car - the tires alone will betray you. Old cars have limits which can be reached by mere mortals, and that's what makes them fun to me. New cars have limits which far exceed most people's driving ability.

I would however agree with the statement that the transaxle cars are prone to understeer followed by oversteer, but handled remarkably well when compared to their contemporaries.

[ArtS]

Dale,

Good thread idea!

PM Yale so that he posts his write-ups on various 330s here.

RE: Maranello vs. 330GTC - tough to compare, Maranello is a brilliant modern car; GTC is a brilliant vintage car. If you want the best performance possible, go with a Maranello. If you want the best performance then the Maranello is the way to go. If you want the most memorable/enjoyable driving experience then go vintage. My M3 outperforms my 330 2+2. However, have a lot more fun in the Ferrari.

Regards,

Art S.

[Ed Niles]

Delightfully written, and accurate. Could the GTC need front-end bushings? Clutch adjustment? I much prefer a 250SWB both for its handling and its gearbox. If you want a real eye-opener, try something like a Boano which has you sliding off the seat at each bend in the road, and requires both feet on the brake pedal! Cheers.

[Shortshifter]

First of all, Synchro, don't be unkind to the good Dr. (Who, that is)!

I happen to be the above mentioned "buddy" (as in running) and know Dr. Who to be a man of good taste fully deserving of his opinions. That said, I disagree with him as well. The older cars have a sense of involvement, that sound, a texture to their feel, the smell of red paint and gasoline,.....(please feel free to fill in your personal eroticism here).

Please note the relative number of posts of Dr. Who and myself. He posts while I am either under or elbow-deep in the innards of the cars (notice the that beautiful 330 gauge shot and those exemplary readings). So the Doc and I have a symbiosis thing going, he likes to drive, I like to fettle. Our arrangement works even better because we've managed to convince our wives that it's the other fella's wife who will be forced to work for a living after we've died because of our car habit.

As for technology, it's amazing that the suspensions of the two are so remarkably similar in layout. It's as if the 550 is a modern replica of the 330. But the difference in performance and feel is profound. the 550 just sails along while the poor 330 driver is using all his skills just to keep the Maranello in view. We also have a '77 308GTB, a neat car restored by Francois Sicard with michelotto cams, Tubi, 16' P-zeros, euro airdam & bumpers, fiberglass decklid (overall car 300 lbs. lighter than stock). Again, same suspension visually but wholly different feel. I'm sure the P-zeros have something to do with it, not to mention the Pilots on the 550.

That's it!, let's try rack and pinion and 35 series tires on the 330 and maybe I'll get to drive the 550 more.

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by synchro

Exactly, perhaps the good Dr should try a Honda next, seems more suitable for his style

I don't know whether you are being sarcastic or have never driven a Maranello. I have NEVER heard anyone who drove a Maranello that compared it to a Honda.

Also please note the title of this thread. I'd like to hear people's DRIVING impressions, not opinions that are based on other people's opinions, i.e, bench racing bs.

Dale

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by donv

Great writeup. Interesting that for me, the fun factor is reversed. I find my 456 to be a fantastic machine for travelling, or daily driving, or just about any sort of transportation. It's lots of fun, but...

My 365, with all it's quirks and noises and strange ergonomics, now that's FUN!

Don, I have never driven a 456 and don't know how it compares to a 550. All I know is that I could probably drive a Maranello for the next 10 years and still never master the car.

Dale

[Bryanp]

I think Yale E said it best, either here or on Tom Y's site, awhile back; "driving a vintage Ferrari is an event; anything else is just transportation."

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by xs10shl

I would however agree with the statement that the transaxle cars are prone to understeer followed by oversteer, but handled remarkably well when compared to their contemporaries.

Yes, indeedy. The GTC is old school, but one hell of school, though.

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by Ed Niles

Delightfully written, and accurate. Could the GTC need front-end bushings? Clutch adjustment? I much prefer a 250SWB both for its handling and its gearbox. If you want a real eye-opener, try something like a Boano which has you sliding off the seat at each bend in the road, and requires both feet on the brake pedal! Cheers.

Thanks. I'll have to defer to Shortshifter about the bushings. But the clutch is working a whole lot mo better than when we first got the car.

But your comment about the 250 SWB is exactly what I'm looking for. How does it compare to the GTC? Again, watching that guy four-wheel drift a 250 SWB raised the hairs on my neck. But he made it seem like another day at the office. Does the car inspire that much confidence once you figure it out?

Dale

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by Shortshifter

So the Doc and I have a symbiosis thing going, he likes to drive, I like to fettle. Our arrangement works even better because we've managed to convince our wives that it's the other fella's wife who will be forced to work for a living after we've died because of our car habit..

Dem's dat talking, don't know.
Dem's dat know, ain't talking.

[donv]

I think the overall driving experience between the 456 and the 550 is very similar, hence my point. I happen to own a 456 and a 365 2+2, which are a close comparison to the 550/330GTC in feel, and I get to regularly drive them back to back.

My brother and I sometimes take the two cars out to work, and he was astonished at how much work it was trying to keep up with the 456 in the 365. In contrast, the 456 felt like it was loafing.

To each his own!

Originally Posted by Dr Who

Don, I have never driven a 456 and don't know how it compares to a 550. All I know is that I could probably drive a Maranello for the next 10 years and still never master the car.

Dale

[Jack-the-lad]

Thank you for this thread, Dale. I've never driven a 550 or 575, but I do own a 330GTC, so I'll limit my comments to that model.

First, I bought this Ferrari late in life, after nearly forty years of owning many different Porsches of all eras. I decided to get the front engine, V12, vintage Ferrari experience while I was physically able, and before prices started to get away from me. I decided on the GTC after doing a lot of research, much of which was done on this site. The other "affordable" V12s didn't appeal to me for various reasons, and the others that *did* appeal to me (SWB, Lusso, 275GTB) were long since past my budget constraints. So, I kissed a lot of pigs, stupidly passed up a couple of sweethearts, spent a lot of money on travel and PPIs, and bought what I consider to be the best GTC available at the time.

I haven't regretted it for a second. The car is used on tours, usually in the mountains. The first full day of driving it I had cramps in my forearms! I haven't noticed anything except neutral steering response, but that could be for a number of reasons: I'm used to rear engined cars; I may not be pushing the car hard enough to uncover handling quirks; the suspension was set up very precisely by a very experienced chassis technician as soon as I took delivery.


The gearbox in my car likes to be warm before going into second without protest, but after a few miles it's fine. I've never noticed a problem changing down.

The car (and the experience) has been everything I hoped and expected it would be. I've read a lot of good things about the GTC and agree with those who say it is an under appreciated car. I can't imagine parting with it. My only regret is that I didn't get interested in Ferraris earlier...I might have ended up with that Lusso, 275GTB or even SWB (but I don't think any of them would deliver any more satisfaction-per-dollar than the GTC does).

Jack

[whturner]

It would be interesting to compare the GTC to a well set up GT. Some of the impressions regarding the transition from massive understeer to hanging out the rear end a bit do not correspond to my impressions of the GT. But I have not tracked a GTC.
Assuming there is no slop in the bushings, I would think it had more to do with the difference in rear suspension - the GTC with IRS, and the GT with a (well located) solid axle.

Cheers
Warren

[Dr Who]

Originally Posted by whturner

It would be interesting to compare the GTC to a well set up GT. Some of the impressions regarding the transition from massive understeer to hanging out the rear end a bit do not correspond to my impressions of the GT. But I have not tracked a GTC.
Assuming there is no slop in the bushings, I would think it had more to do with the difference in rear suspension - the GTC with IRS, and the GT with a (well located) solid axle.

Cheers
Warren

Perhaps I should explain that I was actually comparing the understeer in the GTC to the Maranello. All front-engined cars understeer. It is the nature of the beast. But the Maranello has bigger tires and a faster steering ratio, and by comparison it tracks like a cat. The GTC being 30 year-old technology takes more effort.

It has been a while since I drove a Ferrari GT, but almost by definition a GT will have MORE understeering than the GTC because it is longer. Moreover, because the GTC has a transaxle, it has a better weight distribution than a GT.

So please understand, I didn't mean to say that the GTC had bad handling. In fact, the suspension in this car has been completely redone. My point is that the GTC handles like a 1967 sports car, which means understeer following by oversteer.

It is what it is. Indeed, one of the reasons that I started this thread is to try and increase our databank of knowledge about how to drive these old cars. A lot of us are used to driving modern cars and getting into an old banger requires learning some new skills or remembering old ones.

Dale

PS While I wasn't driving at anything approaching racing speeds, this was on public roads, I wasn't just motoring down the road. These cars are thoroughbreds. They were born to run.

[Smiles]

I'm with Warren.
Every time I drive my 330 GT, I'm amazed by how well the solid axle is suspended.
Every time I drive it hard, I love the predictability of a solid axle.
But I also haven't driven a GTC hard, and I have never driven a 250 SWB, so I really can't compare. I would love to hear from someone who has.

--Matt

[Shortshifter]

The above mentioned GTC has new suspension bushings front and rear and minimal free play in the steering. The clutch is fine, I re-did the hydraulics when I got the car.

I first saw a GTC in Car and Driver Magazine in 1967 (Red/Black, Wire Wheels, just like this car) when I was 13 years old. Someone with more skills than me on the computer should post the road test. It may help explain our lack of cold objectivity when we regard these cars.