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#1
05-29-2007, 05:08 PM
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Bandwagon jumping in the Racing section..
I have said before it's too quick to call Hamilton the next Senna or Schumacher. To be Schumacher, you have to do well over the years, you have to do well in rain, in shine, you need to put in fast laps when they need put in. You need to be able to make a good car shine and a bad car do as well as it can. You need to be able to give feedback to make a bad car good, you need to do so many things - we have seen ONE thing so far from Hamilton - that he can drive. But how can he do in an F1 car in rain? I dunno, and neither do you. How can he do in a sub-optimal car? I dunno, and neither do you.
In some of my posts, I recalled the times when people were calling Rosberg the next big thing - people say "no Hamilton IS the next big thing, WAY better than Rosberg". So here's a little trip down memory lane on Rosberg comments. POSTED BY "LIGHT GUY" "Fastest lap in his first F1 race. Williams car; was supposed to be a mid pack car per the obituaries of last year. He is the next super-star POSTED BY "505HT" (when I said calling him superstart was premature) "Premature schmemature.....Rosberg is the next big thing. Watch that footage of him passing Coulthard and there is a killer instinct in his style. I'm willing to eat my words on this." POSTED BY TURB0FLAT4 "Nico, OTOH, has proven to be very capable even in his first race (unlike Narain). Maybe it has something to do with the playing field being levelled with everyone still getting used to V8s, but that kid done good. I would place my money on him being the "real" next big thing." POSTED BY JKNIGHT "Nico IS for real and IS the next MS....comparing Nico to Webber/Button is like comparing apples and oranges. " POSTED BY JAMEEL "I've never been a big fan of Webber I think he's over rated. I think Rosberg is the next big thing." POSTED BY CARCRAZY "I would rather have him right now (still somewhat green to F1 car potential) than Massa." POSTED BY CRG125 "My cousin went to school with Nico in France and they are pretty good friends. ...The guy is a genius and super talented. Definitley world champion material. In addition he is one of the most down to earth people." Hamilton seems to be the real deal - a great talent. But it takes more than 5 races (without a win, I may add) to be called the next Schumacher. So many drivers have shown a lot of promise and failed to capitalize on it and turn it into WDC's. Webber, Kimi, Rosberg, Button. All of them were the media darlings at one point, and many on this very forum called them the next superstars and laughed at anyone who suggested we needed more time to evaluate. I wonder how many of the posters above still feel that Rosberg is the next Schumacher, the next superstar, the "real deal"???? Ya can't have it both ways... either Rosberg IS that good and the car just hurts him this year - in which case one would have to admit that Hamilton may be getting painted in a very good light from being in such a good car. Or on has to say that Rosberg wasn't that good, which would mean the car was just great for a time - and given the performance of the McLaren this year, we could say there is a good chance Hamilton is also benefitting from being in the best car. I'm not saying Hamilton is not the real deal, or he's not a future F1 star - just saying it's waaaay early to be calling him MS-level material. And also I'm trying to point out the maddening (to me) level of bandwagon jumping going on in the forum. Do a search on "Schumacher retire" and you will find tons of people saying 2 years ago that he's washed up, he no longer has the speed, he is past it. Then search posts around the end of last year when he was close to winning his 8th WDC and (in many cases the SAME people) are saying he's the master, he's great, he's the best ever, etc. While you're at it, do a search on Massa and some of the people who are such champions of him will be posting last year how he sucks and should be fired immediately, etc. Its like watching a tennis match seeing people switch sides so quick! 
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#2
05-29-2007, 05:18 PM
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regardless of Hamilton, I still believe Rosberg has a very bright future in Formula 1.
The question remains however, have F1 cars become too 'easy'? I have said it before regarding Vettel. He stepped in at (I believe it was in Istanbul) and set the fastest time in his first ever official practice session in F1. Now, Vettel is very good in the junior racingseries, but there are more good drivers around. Same goes for Robert Kubica. He was not that special in lower classes, but once in the BMW he turned out to be a very fast driver. and now Hamilton. Granted, Hamilton actually DID set the world a light in F3 and GP2, but is it really surprising these days that a talented young driver is able to take a F1 car up to its limit so quickly and with apperent ease?
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#3
05-29-2007, 05:23 PM
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#4
05-29-2007, 05:33 PM
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When Ferrari was stumbling in 2005, people were calling for everything from Todt's resignation, to saying Schumi was over the hill, to saying Brawn was washed up. People wanted Rosberg at Ferrari, they wanted Massa drawn and quartered in 06 after a few races. Thank god that the team principles are more patient than the fans on this forum. Can you imagine if some of the folks who jump bandwagons so quick were authorotative in F1 - like team managers, etc? We'd have 10 Toyota-esque teams out there who were all fumbling at the back of the pack and going through radical changes every time something didn't go 100% perfect!
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#5
05-29-2007, 05:36 PM
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If they aren't reliable OR just not quicker than most... overhaul.
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#6
05-29-2007, 05:38 PM
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The weak also do not want to waiver from what is considerd to be conventional wisdom, a popularity contest of sorts. In fact, they jump on a different bandwagon and criticize anyone that voices any opinion other than their own and the majority. I still believe that Massa is the real thing, have since last season, have always been in the extreme vocal minority praising Felipe. Despite the criticism and put downs, I stick to that belief. But most of that belief is not intuition, it is cheating, I admit.
I don't buy into the Hamilton comments, didn't with Kubica or Rosberg. No doubt they are good, but no way to tell about the future. Yet. I certainly don't believe there will be another Schumacher or Senna from this group. A Prost or Lauda maybe. I will deny saying this, but this is actually a well stated thread. Last edited by RP; 05-29-2007 at 05:40 PM.
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#7
05-29-2007, 06:13 PM
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If you read my post thoroughly, which you only took a part of as your referenced quote, you would soon see why I made my comment. During his tenure in GP2, I have seen Nico drive several times in person in Europe. My comments about his style of driving were well founded - referenced with what I saw at Spa. The talent is definitely there, the car isn't. Regarding Lewis Hamilton, his stats speak for himself. Former F1 drivers have spoken of his great potential as well. Ron Dennis is no fool and has nurtured Lewis along the way for bigger and better things. Carol Marnix, your post #2 is terrific! Last edited by jknight; 05-29-2007 at 06:54 PM.
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#8
05-29-2007, 06:39 PM
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explained why you think Nico IS the next MS. You didn't say he's really good, or he's done well before, you said HE IS THE NEXT MS. To me, MS is the greatest driver ever, certainly of the modern times. He did things that dropped peoples jaws. He has 7 WDC's and holds just about every record in F1. You said Nico was the next MS. I think that's ludicrous, and I said it back then. Then this year, you made a post about how Hamilton will re-write the history books. Again you explained it with his history of winning in lesser series. I guess re-writing the history books is as grandiose a claim as saying Nico is the next MS? So does that mean we have two uber-superstars in F1 in a span of only 2 years? Who will the pet superstar be next year? I'm sorry if you took offense to my post - but you're an example of what I'm talking about. You jump on the bandwagon of whoever is hot that year, claiming they are the next big thing. Do you still think Rosberg is the next MS? Seriously? I've seen you suggest that when people don't like what you post, or if you don't like what they post, that they go to a different forum. May I suggest that if you don't like it, you leave. I have never told anyone they should leave the forum, just because they called me out on something I said that was pretty out-there in terms of accuracy or believability.
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#9
05-29-2007, 06:47 PM
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As for Kimi, in my case I don't think it's sticking to the old ways that I consider him better than Massa. Kimi does not have a startling record of wins, nor does he have many of the things MS has. But I have watched every single F1 race he's ever been in. And in those hundred-some starts, there have been many times when I opened my eyes and took notice of his driving. He's been blisteringly fast. He's shown enormous bravery (witness many of his on-track battles with MS). He's made a slow car go really fast, and he's battled his way back from bad starts to get podiums and wins that I don't think any other driver - save maybe MS - could have done. I personally do not think all of those 100-some starts are erased by 5 races this year. Especially when one of those was a win (a feather in his hat), one was a DNF that was not his fault - leaving three. Of the three, two were P3's - not bad at all. One was a mess - totally his fault. At most, he has had 3 sub-par performances, and I think its' a stretch to call a pair of P3's "sub par" - but even if you do, it's still only 3 bad races. 3 bad races do not erase 110 others and many other wins and podiums. Conversely with Massa, 5 good races (and it was actually only really 3 good races. One was a mess, one was not very good due to his mistake). 3 good races does not the next MS make. IMO of course. I will say Massa is doing better than I expected, and Kimi is doing worse. If Massa keeps it up, and Kimi doesn't start showing what I think is his true talent, then I will be 100% behind saying Massa is better than Kimi. But not yet - it's way early to say it, just like (IMO) it's way early to say Hamilton is the next MS, just like it was way early last year for the bandwagon jumpers to call Rosberg the next MS.
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#10
05-29-2007, 08:46 PM
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i've always said the Hamilton hype is getting overboard. i'll never compare him to MS/Senna. i can't even believe Bernie already compared him to MS.
MS and Senna both came from budget teams. they had a sh!tty car to drive at the beginning, compared to Hamilton. no disrespect to Hamilton, he's doing a great job. but comparing him to Senna/MS? common.....it's like comparing Wayne Rooney to Pele...
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#11
05-29-2007, 09:14 PM
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While I agree (and posted to this effect) that the LH hype is out of control, I actually believe he *may* be the "chosen one" based on performances to date (not just in F1 BTW). To me, he's the closest to Senna I've seen since, well, Senna - Whether he lives up to my expectations (even in the wrong car) remains to be seen, and I don't think he'll come close to challenging MS' records, but he seems like the "real deal"..... [aka - Nico, Mark, Heikki at al] Plus, he seems like a really nice kid, which really sucks![Kind of like the athlete who's also good academically - Not fair! :-) ] As usual, my 02c, Cheers, Ian
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#12
05-29-2007, 10:08 PM
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I try to avoid bandwagons, unless they happen to involve Milka I-Dunno
I was excited about Niko, but thought he got over-hyped from the get go. I guess it's good that people still want to get so excited about the sport, and ultimately that's the best part. But I burned out on all this "heir-apparent" nonsense back when Walter Payton retired. Well before Jordan's "heir-apparent" era.
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#13
05-30-2007, 02:56 AM
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I agree with the premise of this thread. Super quick judgments lack accuracy. The more data one has, the more accurate the predictions become. I don't think Rosberg is fast at all (certainly not yet). He was absolutely obliterated by Webber last year. Kubica isn't fast yet either. Kubica has not proven to be better than Heidfeld - this year or last year. Heidfeld is possibly a WDC with the right car, as is Webber (assuming he had a modicum of reliability). I don't think people are calling Heidfeld or Webber future multiple WDCs - so why Rosberg or Kubica. Even Hamilton is a risky bet. He hasn't proven himself to be definitively faster than his teammate (an extremely fast one though).
Last edited by Mr Payne; 05-30-2007 at 02:58 AM.
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#14
05-30-2007, 03:43 AM
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#15
05-30-2007, 09:05 AM
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I really don't like the term band waggon because it implies one makes statements just to fall in line with everybody else's. Really not true for me. I make my own calls, be they right or wrong. I don't see a problem with changing your mind. I have been a big fan of MS up to 03 then lost interest and became a big Alonso fan up to 07. Again that is not band waggon to me but rather that I'm getting tired of seeing the same person win year after year.
Right now I'd like nothing more than Hamilton to get his first victory and at some point his first and second championship. But I already know, that by the time he bags his third title, I'll be bored of him and want the new rookie of that year to win it all. Maybe jaded or spoiled is a better term than band waggon for me.
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#16
05-30-2007, 11:00 AM
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#17
05-30-2007, 11:04 AM
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I'm not anti Massa. I'm against the belief that he is a top driver.
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#18
05-30-2007, 11:08 AM
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#19
05-30-2007, 11:35 AM
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I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagon.
I learned my lesson when Alesi passed Senna a few times in his Tyrell way back when, and ended up winning a grand total of 1 race in his career. Hamilton shows a lot of promise, no doubt about that. He has an awfully long way to go, though. The true test will really only start when he makes an under-performing car perform - consistently.
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#20
05-30-2007, 01:47 PM
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Some folks fail to see the distinction.
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