Hey Acro folks -- Aileron Rolls

**Chupacabra** · #1 08-31-2009, 11:48 AM

I'm trying to finesse mine a bit more. My new acro instructor has me applying and holding a LOT of back pressure, whereas my first instructor was having me float the roll a bit by releasing a lot of the initial back pressure while inverted (along with the rudder). If memory serves, it seemed as though the latter method worked better. What are you guys accustomed to doing? I'm getting a little frustrated as everything else falls into place nicely, but my regular old aileron rolls are ugly as hell right now!!

**Bob Parks** · #2 08-31-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

I'm trying to finesse mine a bit more. My new acro instructor has me applying and holding a LOT of back pressure, whereas my first instructor was having me float the roll a bit by releasing a lot of the initial back pressure while inverted (along with the rudder). If memory serves, it seemed as though the latter method worked better. What are you guys accustomed to doing? I'm getting a little frustrated as everything else falls into place nicely, but my regular old aileron rolls are ugly as hell right now!!

I would go with the current instructor's instruction. Keep flying the airplane and have it do what you want it to do and what it should be doing in a maneuver. Most of my stuff was ugly too but I kept positive pressure on everything.
Switches

**davebdave** · #3 09-01-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

I'm trying to finesse mine a bit more. My new acro instructor has me applying and holding a LOT of back pressure, whereas my first instructor was having me float the roll a bit by releasing a lot of the initial back pressure while inverted (along with the rudder). If memory serves, it seemed as though the latter method worked better. What are you guys accustomed to doing? I'm getting a little frustrated as everything else falls into place nicely, but my regular old aileron rolls are ugly as hell right now!!

I haven't flown acro in nearly 20 years but it sounds like your current instructor is having you do more of a barrel roll than an aileron. A barrel roll is a looping roll and therefore requires a lot of back pressure. With an aileron roll you pitch up with wings level, then release the back pressure to unload the wing, then roll with aileron and rudder only. You actually need a very small amount of forward stick while inverted to keep the nose from falling too far below the horizon.

What type of airplane are you flying? One of these days I want to get back into aerobatics myself.

Have fun,
Dave

**Chupacabra** · #4 09-01-2009, 01:11 AM

Dave -- my acro stuff is in an injected 160 HP 7KCAB w/ spades. Very fun plane! The technique you describe is what I was used to, and yes, the feeling of what we're doing now almost seems more like a barrel roll to me.

Bob -- I know it's good to maintain positive G all the way around, but I think we may be taking it just a bit too far. The other day, we did a 4 G aileron roll (after a pretty standard 2-2 1/2 G pull up). I didn't even think that was possible!!

I'm not saying my instructor is bad or anything, he's quite good, but I do realize a vast difference in techniques. It seemed like I was able to be much more precise with regard to maintaining a roll around a reference with the old technique. That, and I've never read or heard anything about maintaining so much back pressure before. Additionally, it seems like the nose travels in a much larger diameter circle with the extra pressure.

Here's what we're using right now:

1)Throttle to 2400, dive for 120 MPH
2)Level set, full power
3)Pitch up 30 degrees
4)initiate the roll with full aileron deflection and simultaneously stab the rudder and increase the back pressure significantly
5)hold back pressure, come off the rudder after passing 45 degrees of roll, reintroduce the rudder passing 45 degrees before upright, complete roll.

**James_Woods** · #5 09-01-2009, 11:39 AM

My instruction was done in the 180hp Super Decathlon (spades, symmetrical shortened wing) and I was taught both methods. Barrell roll first, then move on to inverted flight and the point and axial rolls.

I was told to ALWAYS use the barrell roll method (PLENTY of entry speed, with PLENTY of nose up to start the roll) if I were flying my own plane - the lowly 115hp. 7ECA. Many bad things could happen fast in this if you fell out of a maneuover; including a nasty prop overspeed (or even an engine quietness) if you got it very fast and nose down or inverted in negative G. (no constant speed prop or inverted systems to save you)

And to not be doing anything like this below about 4000' AGL.

**Chupacabra** · #6 09-01-2009, 12:05 PM

4000 ft is my friend :-) I sometimes wonder how anyone ever gets confident enough to apply for a low altitude waiver, but I guess it comes with time...

Well, I guess I'll just keep massaging my barrel rolls for now, ugly as they are at present :-) The good thing is that this kind of practice is so much fun!

**James_Woods** · #7 09-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

4000 ft is my friend :-) I sometimes wonder how anyone ever gets confident enough to apply for a low altitude waiver, but I guess it comes with time...

Well, I guess I'll just keep massaging my barrel rolls for now, ugly as they are at present :-) The good thing is that this kind of practice is so much fun!

Well, you can always take some pride in stopping them at wings level just right, and ending up with the nose pointed in roughly the same direction you started...

**Chupacabra** · #8 09-01-2009, 12:49 PM

Haha, thanks, James, I'll try! I just don't know if I can do that, though...I AM part German, after all. :-)

**Chupacabra** · #9 09-03-2009, 07:34 PM

Talked to my current instructor today...he went for a refresher course with the old acro instructor, and said he much prefers the way we used to do aileron rolls now...good for me, I think :-)

**Bob Parks** · #10 09-06-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

4000 ft is my friend :-) I sometimes wonder how anyone ever gets confident enough to apply for a low altitude waiver, but I guess it comes with time...

Well, I guess I'll just keep massaging my barrel rolls for now, ugly as they are at present :-) The good thing is that this kind of practice is so much fun!

I have seen two guys killed in moments of foolish ego trying to do some kind of roll at low altitude or on take off. Neither had the training, the good sense, and good ol' altitude. They didn't have an established nose up to start with and quickly split-S'd into the earth in one case and water in another. I should bow out of this roll discussion because I have never had instruction in it . I did my maneuvers by trying things in the Stearman and DID learn how to do a few things after some hair raising flailing around and talking to some instructors who laughed their butts off watching me. I could do barrel rolls, loops, vertical reverses, hammerhead stalls, spins, snaprolls, and wing-overs. 4000 feet can be eaten up mighty quick if you run out of speed and spatial orientation, especially in a PT-19. I see that what I was doing were barrel rolls with pressure on things all the way around.
Sounds like you are having fun and good instruction.
Switches

**Chupacabra** · #11 09-07-2009, 01:00 PM

I don't think it's a good idea to bow out of any good discussion. You obviously have some experience to share, Bob! :-) I'm sorry you have had to see so many people come to grief, though. Didn't you say something about 33 people or somewhere around that number? That's a lot of unfortunate outcomes. It's good to be reminded of how safe and precise we must always be.

You're right about the altitude, too -- I did a three-turn competition spin the other day and lost nearly 1,000 ft pretty damn quick. Of course, drawing a vertical segment (even a quick one) after the recovery eats up serious altitude, but I've learned that 700-1000 feet goes away very quickly. You are correct about my instruction being good -- the other day, my first acro instructor was up in the box with me critiquing my maneuvers from his Great Lakes. Even got some formation flying experience with him. Every time I get out of the Citabria, I feel like I'm much better than when I got in it. If only instrument training were so exciting and instantly gratifying... :-)

**tazandjan** · #12 09-07-2009, 08:21 PM

CC- Roll rate is much faster if the aircraft is unloaded when rolling. Pull, unload, roll, pull when roll is complete. Just depends on what you are trying to do. Neither technique is incorrect. They just give different results. Practice until you can do both and predict what you will get.

Taz
Terry Phillips

**Chupacabra** · #13 09-07-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan

CC- Roll rate is much faster if the aircraft is unloaded when rolling. Pull, unload, roll, pull when roll is complete. Just depends on what you are trying to do. Neither technique is incorrect. They just give different results. Practice until you can do both and predict what you will get.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Will do, sir! I've been bitten pretty seriously by the acro bug, so practice is no problem :-)