Motor Oil 201, The graduate. | FerrariChat

Motor Oil 201, The graduate.

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AEHaas, Jan 17, 2007.

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  1. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,461
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    Motor Oil 201
    Chapter 10, The graduate.


    I am going to bring up the constant flow pump concept. First, it goes back to the principal that doubling the pressure of the same weight oil does not exactly double the flow but it is close. Also doubling the RPM for the same reason does not exactly double the flow but again it is close.

    This shows the problem best:

    (A) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......20 PSI....1
    2,000......40 PSI....2
    4,000......80 PSI....4
    8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

    (B) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature
    and a higher output oil pump:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......30 PSI....1.5
    2,000......60 PSI....3
    4,000....120 PSI....6 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
    8,000... 240 PSI....12

    If we stick with the same weight oil and increase the oil pump output we will increase the pressure and the oil flow too. If we double the oil pump output we will double the pressure and we will double the oil flow.

    (C) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature:
    The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow. Compare this with (A):
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......30 PSI....1
    2,000......60 PSI....2
    4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
    8,000....240 PSI....8

    (D) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature
    and a higher output oil pump:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......45 PSI....1.5
    2,000......90 PSI....3 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
    4,000....180 PSI....6
    8,000... 360 PSI....12

    The situations (A) and (C) are close to real life, assuming no loss in the system. This is what happens when you change the 30 weight oil to a 40 weight oil in your car:

    (A) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......20 PSI....1
    2,000......40 PSI....2
    4,000......80 PSI....4
    8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

    (C) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature:
    The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow.
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......30 PSI....1
    2,000......60 PSI....2
    4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
    8,000....240 PSI....8

    At 6,000 RPM the maximum rate of flow has been reached with the thinner oil (A). When you go to 7, 8 or 9,000 RPM you do not get any more flow. You only get a maximum rate of 5. The internal forces on the bearings increase but there is no additional flow of oil.

    With the thicker oil you reach maximum flow at 3,000 RPM (C). Worse yet is that the maximum flow is now only 3. As we increase RPM to 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,000 RPM we get no additional pressure and no additional flow, no increase in lubrication.

    Next let us look at a 20 weight oil at operating temperature. We get the same flow out of our constant volume pump but the thinner oil requires less pressure to move through the system. This even goes along with the rule that we should use an oil that gives us 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM:

    (D) RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......10 PSI....1
    2,000......20 PSI....2
    4,000......40 PSI....4
    8,000.. ...80 PSI....8

    The maximum flow rate has not been reached. If the engine went to 9,000 RPM then the flow would be 9 at 90 PSI, our maximum pressure at pop off. The engine now has 3 times the flow rate as with the 40 weight oil at full RPM. The nozzles at the bottom of each cylinder are spraying 3 times the amount of oil lubricating and cooling this section. Everything runs cooler and the separation forces in the bearings are 3 times higher.

    For engines that redline at 5,000 RPM they usually pop off the oil pressure at 50 to 60 PSI. For engines that go to 8-9,000 RPM the pressures max out at 90-100 PSI. You can now see that you can only get the maximum flow rate if you follow the 10 PSI / 1,000 RPM rule.

    The winner: 0W-20 weight oil for my Maranello. I said earlier that I could use a 10 weight oil. I actually only run with 185 F oil temperature around town and the pressures are similar to the 40 weight oil example in (C) above. This is why I also said that in the racetrack condition, with hotter, thinner (0W-20) oil I may actually get the optimal results as in (D) above.

    Now let us go back to the Ferrari recommended parameters in my 575 Maranello manual. It calls for 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM. The pop off pressure has not been reached. As we now increase the RPM we still get an increase in flow rate. This is what we need and this is exactly what they are recommending. We get our maximum flow at the maximum system pressure, at about the maximum engine RPM of 7,700. There is no bypassing of the oil. All oil pumped goes through the system. There is no wasted BHP pumping oil past the bypass valve back to the oil tank. It is the perfect system.

    Finally I will compare a single, 30 weight oil, at normal (212 F) and at racetrack (302 F) temperatures:

    (A) For a 30 wt oil at normal (212 F) operating temperature:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......20 PSI....1
    2,000......40 PSI....2
    4,000......80 PSI....4
    8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

    (E) For a 30 wt oil at elevated (302 F) operating temperature. The oil is thinner at 302 F. It requires less pressure to get the same flow:
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......10 PSI....1
    2,000......20 PSI....2
    4,000......40 PSI....4
    8,000......80 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 9

    The hotter (302 F) 30 weight oil is thinner than the cooler (212 F) 30 weight oil. It has the same flow rate in the constant volume oil pump but at a lower pressure than the oil at normal operating temperature. This allows for a doubling of the flow rate at peak RPM. The thinning of oil at higher temperatures is a benefit. You get more flow, more cooling and more lubrication.

    The 30 weight oil at 302 F has the exact same flow rate and pressures as the 20 weight oil at 212 F. See (D) above. Therefore, use the 20 weight for around town driving and the 30 weight on the hot track. You get maximum flow at each situation.

    For YOUR engine, substitute the actual flow at 1,000 RPM. If your engine puts out 1.5 liters/min. at 1,000 RPM it would put out 3 liters/min. at 2,000 RPM and 6 liters/min. at 4,000 RPM and so on. The maximum flow in (A) would be 7.5 liters/min. In situations (D) and (E) you would get a maximum of 13.5 liters/min.


    Conclusions:
    The reason that multigrade oils were developed in the first place was to address the problem of oil thickening after engine shutdown. Over the years we have been able to reduce the amount of thickening that occurs. Never-the-less there is no oil that does not thicken after you turn your engine off. This is why we have to warm up our engines before revving them up. Engine designers always pick the recommended oil based on a hot engine and hot oil. There is no issue with oil thinning as they are both matched when hot. The problem is oil thickening when the engine cools.

    Cold engine showing very high pressures because of the thickened oil at startup:

    For a 40 wt oil at 75 F at startup:
    The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow.
    RPM....Pressure..Flow
    1,000......60 PSI....1
    2,000....120 PSI....2 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 1.5
    4,000....240 PSI....4
    8,000....480 PSI....8

    At 1,500 RPM you reach the maximum oil flow rate and if you run to 8,000 RPM it is the same rate. The flow cannot increase and it is insufficient. This is why we must wait until our oil temperature comes up to 212 F or higher. The maximum flow rate in this case will then double, up to 3. To get even more flow in our test engine you need to use a lower viscosity grade.

    If you have absorbed and digested the information here you should be able to pick out the proper operating oil weight for your car, be it a 30, 40, 50 or even 20 weight oil. I have always used oils that were a grade thinner than recommended even though many use a grade thicker than recommended. I showed evidence that the starting grade should always be 0 or 5 (0W-XX or 5W-XX for thicker oils). If you want the best protection and highest output from your motor use a synthetic based oil. The actual brand is not as critical as the viscosity. The rating must be SL or the upcoming SM rating. Change your oil every 3 - 5,000 miles and at least every spring.

    Final examination to follow later.
     
  2. JohnnyS

    JohnnyS F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2006
    15,138
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    John
    I have used a 0-30 Mobil 1 oil in my 2004 Suburban and on the highway after several hours, the oil pressure gauge increased from the 45 psi (typical) to 75 psi. This was strange and so I made a stop to download some Pepsi. After sitting for about 15 minutes I started driving again and the oil pressure was about 45. However, after about another 45 minutes the pressure increased back to 75 psi.

    After getting home I immediately changed oil to 5-30 Mobil 1 and have never seen this again.

    What was happening here? The oil was fairly new with less than 1000 miles on it.
     
  3. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,461
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    Whatever was going on it was not the oil.

    aehaas
     
  4. JohnnyS

    JohnnyS F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2006
    15,138
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    John
    If there was foaming, I would suspect a lower oil pressure.

    The oil pressure was rpm related because if I slowed down to 55, it came down and if I increased back to 65-70, it would creep up. When running 5-30 and the engine is hot, the oil pressure is always at 45 psi. The only time I see 70 psi is when the engine is cold and the oil has not heated up.

    Very strange.
     
  5. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)
    Pressure and temperature are increased proportional in a fixed volume if I remember correctly. So as you increase the temperature of your engine the pressure will increase as well, resultant an increase the flow. Assuming that the lighter oil increase temperature more quickly than the heavy oil, would this be another reason why the thicker oil has less flow at the same PSI at start up?

    And I believe Mobil 1 does have a brand with the SM rating too. I just bought 2 quarts of 0w-40 synthetic with SM rating.
     
  6. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)
    How many miles does your Suburban have and can this be a result of engine wear?
     
  7. JohnnyS

    JohnnyS F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2006
    15,138
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    John
    It had about 20,000 miles and now has about 30,000. I am still running 5-30 and this oil pressure issue has not appeared again.
     
  8. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
    900
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Steve Hill
    PV = nRT. (If I remember correctly.) Pressure, Volume, and Temperature. That's the relationship.

    Amazing, something I learned over 30 years in high school is useful.

    Steve
     
  9. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)

    I forgot the question or who wrote it but I think that's right. I will it up later but if I remember it was called the ideal gas law. I was just thinking out logically that if you have a fixed volume and increase the temperature the molecules move around faster bumping each other therefore increase the pressure between them unless you increase the Volume hence the expansion tank.
     
  10. JohnnyS

    JohnnyS F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2006
    15,138
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    John
    PV=nRT would hold true for a closed system. The oil is in an open oil pan with more volume to expand. So, the oil pressure would need to increase only if there was a restriction in the oil flow path and then the oil heated up. Oil 101 teaches us that the viscosity decreases with increasing temperature and this should allow for more flow at lower pressure.

    I think there was something going on with foaming and that was causing a restriction in the oil filter. I cannot explain it anyother way and I really don't want to phy 0-30 in my truck again just to find out. Now my wife's car, that is a different story, but hers doesn't have an oil pressure guage. Shucks.

    In any event, I am proud of you for remembering some thermodynamics.
     
  11. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)
    I think you can consider the volume in the piston as a closed space. Sure the oil pan has no volume restriction therefore you rarely get oil pans that wear out. Plus no moving parts. I believe 90% of the wear comes from the pistons moving up and down. Think about it........:)

    Do you think you might have had a batch of contaminate oil in your last fill?
     

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