348/355 Main seal orientation

I'm going to guess that the double-lip goes toward the pressurized engine oil side and the single-lip toward the gearbox.

Rifledriver, whadaya think?

 

Just kidding(maybe????) I hate these 50/50 delimas.....my vote is for single lip to engine...double lip to the gearbox

 

Which way were the seals that it replaced oriented ?
My guess is that your guess is correct

 

On the original double seal, one seal (single lip) faces one direction and the other seal (single lip) faces the other. I would think that there would have been some kind of service or parts bulletin on this on this updated part.

 

Daniel
This is the same seal that was used in 355(....and was superceded by PN174249....(wonder why you didn't get the newer seal..who knows WTF goes at the factory). Point being that you may find a service bulliten listed in an up to date 355 work shop manual.

Bruce

 

Daniel
Lip(3) should be rubber(has about 5 or 6 little grooves) that fits over crankshaft end.....lip(1 and 2) should be plastic that faces gearbox.
I haven't seen this particular seal......is seal 3 a soft rubber and seal 1 and 2 plastic(or hard rubber)?

 

Your picture of 183581 would SEEM to show that the top side on the picture would go towards the rear of the car - isn't that shoulder for driving in the seal with the installation tool?

 

Seals #1 & 2 go in facing the engine. Seal number #3 faces the tranny. If you look at the seal you will see that it is sort of cupped. The side with seals #1 & 2 would be the top of the cup, and #3 the bottom of the cup. Like in the bottom picture with the seal lying flat. You want the two seals, the side facing up in the bottom picture, facing towards the engine to keep the oil in the block. That way you will have both of them working against the pressure build up in side the engine block. When you have it in, the back of the seal, the side facing the gear box, will be nice a flush with the back of the engine cover.

There is a little trick I used when I put mine on. As you know the seals are a bit hard. You need to get them to spread open a bit in order to get it over the back of the crank. You can't just push it on. You have to have the seals spread open in the dirrection they are facing, otherwise it will leak. So to get them to open here is what you do.

Get a long funnel, like the kind you would use for automatic transmission fluid. Place the funnel facing down, with the tip up. Now take the seal and gently push it down onto the funnel until the seals have spread just enough get over the back of the crank. You don't want to open them up too much, you still want it to fit snug. The back of the crank has a little rim running around it that will help you get the seal over. So you want to open it up so the seal almost gets over the back of the crank, but not quite, yet does fit over the little rim. You'll see what I'm talking about when you take the old one off. The other thing is that I pressed the seal on the back of the block cover first, opened the seals via the funnel, then pushed it on the back of the crank. While you are at it you may as well replace the seal that runs around the inside of the cover.

Oh yeah another thing. Before you press the new seal into the cover you will want to put a little bit of high temp silicone sealant inside the bottom part of the cover, where the seal gets pressed in. Make sure you get it to go all the way around the bottom inside rim. Don't go over board with it though. All you need is just engough to make a nice seal between the cover and the cup of the seal. I don't know why these guys designed the side of the seal housing the way that they did but, how in the heck do they expect metal to seal with metal??????? There is nothing to seal the outside of the cup. So you may have it nice and snug over the crank, but it will still leak around the outside of the cup, in between the cover, because there isn't anything to keep the oil out. Anyway put some hi-temp silicone seal in there to keep it from leaking around the outside. I used Hondabond HT. I also put the Hondabond around the groove for the cover seal before I put the new cover seal in. Pressed everything on nice and careful, and no leaks to date, not one drop.

Happy wrenching.

 

My favorite trick for installing a seal on a shaft without damaging the seal lip is to wrap the very end of the shaft with Mylar packing tape (just want to catch the end maybe 1/8 inch or so). Then put a little oil on the seal lip and slip it on. when it's on just pull off the tape (make sure it all came off) and finish pressing the seal home. Often I machine a special driver mandrel from aluminum or Delrin to accomodate the application. I almost NEVER use a socket.

 

Here is my WAG. It does not matter. Over the years Ferrari has tired all kinds of things to prevent seals from leaking. I would not be surprised that the only reason for this new seal is that is is the same size as something else on the 360 or 430. They have made directional oil seals to redirect oil back into the cams galleys etc... Guess what they all still leak. So in this case all three seals will fit over the crank nose so put it in either way you want. Also follow Ernies direction of some honda bond on the metal lip or you will leak. By the way Daniel it is time for my next annual engine out service (I'm racing) so will you send me one of those seals?

 

I think you are definitely on to something. Fluid containment has never been a big engineering priority for the Italians or the British. On a couple of occasions I've looked at an OEM seal before installing it and gone shopping for an alternative from the local bearing and seal store.

 

Okay fatboy, I'm gonna have to tell you your wrong. (He doesn't like being told that )

You must put the double seals towards the engine. You have to have two seals fighting the pressure build up inside the block, other wise it will leak. Yes over time all seals will eventually leak, but if you put it on the wrong way it will leak way faster. So you must put in the two seals facing the engine block.

 

No comment on the direction of the seal, but combining 2 old seals into 1 comprehensive new seal must be better (leakwise). Kudos to Ferrari for the obvious improvement.

 

Ugh. I completely misunderstood this thread.

 

Wearing a thin condom on top of your thick condom does not prevent pregancy any better than the reverse regardless of the pressure. Also, smart guy there is oil pressure in the galleys etc and only 70psi out of the pump but the block is not presurized nor is the oil above the level of the crank. In fact the oil level in the case is quite low due to the "DRY" sump, i.e. there is only trace oil at the rear main seal

 

Anyone with a connection to FNA's dealer "tech support"? They ought to know...

 

Before I put mine in I talked to the main tech at Ferrari Beverly Hills, Eugenio, and QV London. The conclusion from all three was that the double seals went in towards the engine.

 

Okay smartass. And the pistons going up and down at 7,500rpm aren't gonna make any pressure, now are they?????

I just looked at the engine diagrams for the 550, 575, 612, and the Enzo. The best diagrams I could find shows the inside cup (#12 & #8) of the seal FACING THE ENGINE.

550
http://eurospares.co.uk/userImages/018/Large/018_002.gif

575
http://eurospares.co.uk/userImages/011/Large/011_002.gif

612
http://eurospares.co.uk/userImages/014/Large/014_002.gif

Enzo
http://eurospares.co.uk/userImages/015/Large/015_002.gif

Now if you wanna put your "rubbers" on backwards then have at it chubby. Plus it's easier to keep 75w-90 oil out with one seal than it is 5w-30. The thinner oil needs better sealing than the thicker oil.

I told you he does like being told he's wrong.
Hehehehe.

 

I guess that we will just have to take an Enzo and tear it down to be sure. I asked an old tech friend at FOA. He wasn't sure so they asked FNA. It's been over a week and no answer yet. Typical support from FNA.

 

Those diagrams don't show me anything. Sorry I don't see it or the resolution isn't there. Anyway See the post above by FOM. This appears to be a very important issue to FNA since they have given him such a speedy response. I will be pulling my motor for its annual service in a couple weeks. Which way would you like me to put in my seal to prove "you" wrong?

By the way for every piston that goes up one comes down. The block is not a "net" compressor of air or oil. In fact all Ferrari has for this compressor is small valve cover vents served by the dry sump tank. That was done more for emmissions because it is ultimatately hooked into the air intake box. That tells me there is little "blowby" making pressure.

 

Efficient dry sump systems actually run at lower than atmospheric pressure.

 

Yeah baby! You listening Ernie? The guy who hates to be wrong is Ernie. Now come on Ernie...who rebuilt his gearbox about 4 times because he wasn't listening to the "Wizard"? Doh!....I think I feel a kimura coming on...this is going to hurt.
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