Lower sill cancer and how to defeat it! | FerrariChat

Lower sill cancer and how to defeat it!

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009.

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  1. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2006
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    Robert Hayden
    #1 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi guys,

    My 88.5 Testa was recently in for a clutch and during a cursory inspection underneath we found a little issue. There was some slight, but obvious seperation of the lower sill area where it joins the main floor of the car on the UK drivers side.

    This car gets driven two or three times a week, so there is a bit of dirt under neath, but all in all it's in pretty good shape. It's seen one wet road in my two years of ownership, and naturally Australia doesn't have the salt or sand issues found on USA / Euro / UK roads.

    Here's a few pictures of what we found underneath:>
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  2. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2006
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    #2 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Once the car was home with the new clutch all was well until the fourth glass of Merlot after dinner one night. I had obviously been dwelling on it, so wandered down to the garage and low and behold, here's the Testarossa up on the hoist, right at eye level and ready for a check up probe!

    Grabbing a small pry bar and a screw driver I began the cursory investigation! Whoops, the screw driver dissapeared!

    Hmmm.....not good. Not much sleep that night and in the morning, I got into it.

    Unfortunately I didn't get shots of what I found, so it's a before and after scenario, but this diagram of what a Testarossa sill construction looks like, will help in the explanation of proceedings.
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  3. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #3 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'll try and explain. Always hard because I'm working backwards to the way the car would have been assembled at the factory.

    First I removed the 52mm x 1.2mm cover strip which as we can see in the pictures was the initial evidence of some cancerous growth. This buts up to the riveted floorpan sheeting and is tacked every 6 or 7 inches with a small MIG tack.

    It's held to the inner sill boxing section by a few small spot welds and is also bonded with an adhesive of some sort. Once this was removed it was apparent that the inner sill boxing wasn't in good shape, and that this cancer had started in the inner sill boxing and then spread to the cover strip as moisture in here has nowhere to go.

    It wasn't long before it became apparent that I would need to remove the inner sill boxing to do this job properly. Not wanting to upset the spot welding, I ran the angle grinder along the top of the sill seam and then ran it along the base of the verticle section, basically cutting out a reverse L shape.

    Here's the sill cut out:>
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  4. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #4 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So the rusty part still left is the vertical section of the inner sill that is tack welded every 6 or so inches to the chassis rail. Next step was to cut that out which was pretty tricky as it's up about 45mm and you can't get an angle grinder in there.

    I used a fine and very sharp cold chisel and then a die grinder with tunsten carbide cutter to remove the remainder of the welds. The damage does not appear to extend beyond the lifting or jacking sadles so I've cut out the material to that point.

    At this stage I'd been at it most of the day and Suzie opened the garage door, arriving home from work, to be greeted by showers of sparks and the air full of rusty dust and grinding smell, and the visual image of me standing under the Ferrari with angle grinder in hand, getting stuck in!!

    I think she nearly turned around and went back to work she got such a shock. Hey, it's not everyday that you take to your pride and joy with an angle grinder!

    She setttled down after a strong Scotch, and I got back to it after she left for the office the next morning.

    Next I needed to remove the section of the inner sill that was spot welded to form the third skin of the main body seam. To do this, I used a centre punch and marked the centre of every existing spot weld, then using a nice new 6.5mm bit, drilled the spot welds through the first layer, but not going too far into the centre layer which is the strengthening gusset.

    Once the holes were drilled I managed to use the same small, sharp cold chisel to remove the final strip of old metal.
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  5. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #5 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Once the final section of the inner sill was removed it was time to clean everything up and treat the exposed metal with a rust converter / preventative solution. I use a product called FERTAN which is basically a Ferrite Tanate product which converts superficial rust and penetrates the sub strata of the metal forming a permanent barrier. You can prime and paint directly over it.

    The tubular chassis rail isn't treated at all, and when the FERTAN hit the rail it really reacted causing the black that you see in these next pictures. Before applying the solution I used the angle grinder and a wire cup brush and really laid into the rail to get it as clean as possible. You can see some pitting in the surface of the tube, but I didn't want to grind this out, so have left it fully treated.
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  6. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #6 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The car really has some quite interesting construction and design methodology, and here's something you probably haven't seen before.

    Triangulating from the top of the sill and joining the main body seam there is a strengthening rib or gusset. When you step on the sill, the load is transferred through this gusset directly to the body seam where it is shared with the other sill and chassis members. To keep this gusset strong, it has holes pressed into it, just like the ribs on an aircraft wing.

    The body seam is made up of three layers of metal, the outer sill, the middle gusset and the inner sill. In these images you can see that I have removed the inner sill, and you can now see the middle gusset and make out the round pressed holes in the gusset.
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  7. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #7 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's what I took out of the old girl.

    "Ode to England" I think I'll call this little lot!

    Harsh but true, but not entirely what you think. More on this later!
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  8. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #8 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Now that everything was cleaned, prepared, and preserved, it's time to put the new steel back in.

    I used zinc coated steel sheet at 1.2mm thickness. This is the correct type of steel as used in modern cars, although some are only 0.55mm thick! None of that tissue paper for my car, so 1.2 it is.

    The distance between the jacking saddles is exactly 1200mm so I made up two sections of steel. One to replace the inner sill which will be spot welded as per the original to create the third thickness of the originala body seam, and then be MIG tack welded to the chassis tube.

    The other is 52mm x 1.2mm x 1200mm and is the extension of the floorpan that covers from the body seam to the bottom of the chassis rail, exactly as per original.

    Here's the folded section in place ready for welding.
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  9. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #9 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It's nice to have mates with good tools. Here's a 415v three phase spot welding machine sitting in the trailer and about to be unloaded. This will be used to do the spot welds, and hopefully once I have a bit of a practice on some scrap material, I will be able to place the new spot welds right on the originals to keep everything looking perfect.

    The new inner sill will be welded in place, then primed and painted and then the final cover strip section will be welded and bonded into place. Then the final part of the sage will be to apply the Wurth under body deadener to recreate the original finish.

    It's not an easy job, and not one to be taken lightly, but I'm pleased that I found the problem and have been able to rectify it 100% and keep the car as per original.
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  10. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #10 uzz32soarer, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well tomorrow is another day, but before I go, we must all ask ourselves how and / or why did this happen to my lovely car?

    And here's the culprit:
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  11. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    You can see in this horrible picture, where the outer box section wraps around the front wheel arch and is welded under all of that body goo. See the little hole above? Well there is the reason for the water ingress.

    We all have a rubber bung in our lower sills which allows access into the section of the sill UNDER the triangular gusset! But that hole is above the gusset and water getting in there has nowhere to go, so it sits in the inner sill, carrying dirt and mud along with it that deposits on the inner sill steel and rusts it away.

    There are four drainage points along the sill, designed to let air in, and water out, but on the drivers side of my car, these were all gummed up, with a combination of body deadener, and road grime. The moisture couldn't get out!

    I have a mate who's an IT guru, although I think he's a spy as he has some cool gadgets like optical fibre cameras! We removed the bung on the other side of my car and stuck his camera into the sill for a look. No sign of any corrosion, just an olive drab green patina on the steel which I think comes from the factory rust inhibitor.

    Also, there are no holes in the inner guard to let the water in, and all of the drain plugs were clear.

    So lads, get out there and have a look. Check your drain points and also have a look around your frons wheel arch and look for holes where water could get into your sills.

    Next instalment tomorrow once the welding is all done.
     
  12. curtisc63

    curtisc63 Formula 3
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    Awesome post Robert. I think I would have to join your wife on the couch with a scotch if someone suggested I take a grinder to my TR. Yikes!

    Your ole girl is in good hands and lucky to be with you - your TR, I mean. I would never call any woman "ole" and expect to live...

    Can't wait for the final installment.

    CC
     
  13. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #13 Melvok, Jul 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Whaauw Robert.....pitty, what a mess ! Looks like an old Ford or Opel....

    Gave me a very uncomfortable feeling and I had a look staright away because the sooner you know the better...

    Your solution is the only good one; rigorously cut the rust out and replace it !

    Will look better this weekend and if I find no serous problems I will wax these places... never thought of having to do that before...

    We can learn from each other ! So thanx and good luck !
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  14. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Amazing write-up and pics!!! You're a brave, brave, man.
    Good work on the solution, first rate.
    Thanks for sharing.
     
  15. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    awesome post, and excellent work!
     
  16. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #16 Melvok, Jul 20, 2009
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  17. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Very nice pics and text !

    @ The new inner sill will be welded in place @

    I still have some questions.....

    Do you weld the new inner sill boxing only to the triangular gusset or also to the chassis frame rail ?

    Are any new holes for drainage recommended ?

    How do you treat the inside of the new inner sill boxin ? Wax spraying ?

    Please keep us informed !

    Gr from Mel in NL
     
  18. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    Well Mel, that leads to an interesting question. There are no drain holes required in this section IF there is no way for water to get in. In my case, this small hole has opened up and allowed the water ingress.

    I have considered putting more drain holes in but this will take away from the authenticity. So it's a bit of a dillema.

    Yes the new section will be fully spot welded to the original seam, so I will still have a three layer seam as standard. It's impossible to get the gun up high to weld the inner sill section to the tubular rail so I have changed the profile a little to allow welding, but it will be welded to the same member as before, just about 10mm lower down.

    The cover strip will go on as per original. Once it's all done I'll spray fish oil in there, then a wax preservative (like original) and then a coating of body deadener. My panel shop mate has a long nozzle sprayer thats nearly 4 feet long and produces a rotary spray effect, designed specifically for treating sills.
     
  19. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    Hmmmm...looking at that picture Mel, it appears that I shouldn't be able to do what I'm doing. The sill must have been manaufactured at the factory in one part and this then attaches to the car. What a job that would be. I think my way is fine. I've removed everything, I'm re-creating the box structure just as the factory did, and I've identified the problem areas and fixed these along the way.

    Well, the sun is shining, the birds are up, and it's time to go and learn how to spot weld.

    Check in tonight!
     
  20. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    I think so too ! And an extra hole can be drilled afterwards if nesessary ... :-O) !

    On Thursday, I may take the F to work (army-base) where a team is inspecting jeeps in their hollow parts....

    They use old-fashionned scopes and are willing to do so on mine too (never had a F !)...

    Pitty we cannot fotograph the results on a modern screen.. but O.K. it's free...
     
  21. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    Well it was another good day.

    Started out well. I only have a four post hoist so I wandered down to a mate's place who has my two post (on loan) and we lifted the car that way to have better access to the sill. Suzie ("the Wife") followed me down with the spot welder and assorted tools in the trailer.
     
  22. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #22 uzz32soarer, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #23 Melvok, Jul 21, 2009
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  24. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #24 uzz32soarer, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Snap On spot welder was fantastic. I changed the tips to allow a closer angle and we were able to place each spot weld directly over the original factory spot welds by first placing and holding one arm of the welder on the factory spot from the outside and then as the jaws closed, crimped and welded, the welds were perfectly placed.

    Vise Grip clamps were required along the entire length to ensure that everything stayed in place but it really went well.
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  25. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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