Update on my not running right

........sounds like you checked the air filter and it is ok !

all I know about the plate, in the injection system you described, should be able to move freely. I think this plate is simply pushed down according to air flow needs and it makes the injection system send more fuel to the injectors ......... more throttle opening > more air passes through the system > more fuel is sent to the injectors.


Have you checked the cold start injector , , , ??
This is pretty easy
Start the car and let it idle for a minute or 2

Stop the car

Undo the big rubber air hose that goes form the injector body to the plenum chamber , , , the big black corrugated one about 3 inches round .. Undo it at the throttle butterfly and just pull it gently out of the way

Push the throttle butterfly open and have a peep down inside the plenum (you'll need a flashlight) , , ,

If there is wetness in there it will be fuel , , , pretty much the only way you can get fuel in there at this stage is for the cold start injector to be faulty.

If you need one of these I can send you the contact details of where I got one for $60

 

Inducted air sucked into the engine opens that plate which has 2 functions. It is connected to a switch which turns on/off the fuel pump when the plate is closed which explains why the engine quits when it slams closed. Holding it open ensures the fuel pump is powered. You can do the same thing by unplugging the light blue connector.

Also, that plate primarily determines how much air is flowing and feeds the fuel distributor this information to maintain proper fuel/air ratio. I can't explain why the plate would 'slam' closed unless by a prefire, or ignition of fuel into the intake.

The throttle simply opens the air path allowing more air in, that plate opens more and more gas is fed to the injectors.

Alternative fuel flow from cold start injector can occur for a very short period in cold conditions. The thermo-time switch and go bad and mess up the on-timing. WUR can allow entry of alternative path air during cold conditions.

 

When you hold the airflow metering plate a little more open (than it would normally be just from the airflow entering the engine), you are adding a little more fuel.

If your '85 QV is a US version, confirm/deny if the frequency valve is "buzzing/vibrating" -- it should always be buzzing whenever the engine is running (cold or warm). You should be able to confirm/deny this by just feeling it with your fingers. Alternatively, if the engine is running, you can just unplug it -- unplugging it should cause a change in the engine operation -- if no change = bad sign.
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NO!!!

It's much more likely that you have lost the +12V power to run the frequency valve -- either because the 10A fusible link inside the protection relay has blown or the protection relay is bad.

There are two wires connected to the frequency valve -- one PN (beige/black) and one AG (light blue/yellow). The PN wire should always be +12V whenever the engine is running. Measure the voltage on this PN wire, relative to ground, when the engine is running -- if it is not +12V, then you know that you need to look into the protection relay.

Try a search on "308QV protection relay" and read those threads -- especially this one:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179893

See page 102 of your 307/84 OM for the figure showing where the protection relay is located.

 

Patrick -- Got your PM, but I'd prefer to just use this thread to respond (as I can post jpegs, make edits, and my PM box is near full )

I agree that these "no change when unplugged" results indicate that something is wrong with the protection relay, but it does have a function to deliberately "fail" if the alternator goes crazy and (wrongly) starts putting out a high voltage. So, once you have access to a voltmeter, also measure the voltage between the battery terminals when the engine is running and make sure that the voltage from the alternator is not some crazy high value (at 2~3K RPM, it should be something like ~14V -- not 20V).

If that seems OK, as a different test (in addition to just directly measuring the voltage on the PN wire at the FV with the engine running), you can unplug the (supposedly bad) protection (Wehrle) relay, and, using a jumper wire, connect the large P (Beige) wire (that would be connected to terminal 30) directly to the PN (beige/black) wires (that would be connected to terminal 30a). Connecting the P wire on terminal 30 to the PN wires on terminal 30a is what the protection relay does when it is working correctly. If the engine running is better with the jumper in place, that would be another sign that you need a new protection relay.
Last information that I have is that you would have to substitute the US 328 protection relay and move the wires around per the other thread, but it never hurts to talk to the F parts suppliers (RicambiAmerica, All Ferrari Parts, TRutlands, etc.) to see if the US 308QV part is now available (unfortunately, I don't have access to the '84-'85 US 308QV SPC so I don't know what the part number is for the 308QV protection relay -- if someone knows please post it).

 

2 things:

1. It's vitally important that you really understand what the "scale" means on the voltmeter. A displayed measurement of "29" when the meter is set to the 200V AC scale would be disaster (i.e. 29 volts AC), and very unlikely IMO, but a displayed measurement of "29" when the meter is set to the 200mV AC scale is fine (i.e. 29 millivolts AC).

2. While measuring the AC voltage is a good idea (it should be less than, say, ~100 millivolts AC when the engine is running), the DC voltage is more interesting/important.

My advice would be to set the voltmeter to the 20V DC scale (or 50V or 100V) and measure the voltage between the battery terminals when the engine isn't running -- this give you a reference as you know the voltage should be something like ~12.5 VDC so it helps confirm that you understand what the meter is displaying. Then start the engine and see if the meter reading goes to ~14 VDC (which is OK) or something higher (like 20 VDC, which would be bad).

If you make the same measurements with the meter really set to the 20V AC scale, the displayed value should be "0" when the engine isn't running, and maybe "00.02"~"00.10" (i.e., 20~100 millivolts AC) when the engine is running.

 

No worries -- it's called gaining experience -- it's a good thing

Sounds like your alternator is fine so please continue. If you do need to go to the 328 protection relay, give a shout, and I'll post expanded instructions with the wire colors for how to hook it up.

 

I'm 99.99% sure that it is NOT DIRECTLY plug-and-play compatible because the 308QV protection relay has a functional tab in the center position that doesn't exist on the TR/328 Protection Relay. It is plug-and-play compatible in that the various functions on the tabs can be matched up -- but you need to move the wires around.

You shouldn't need to cut the wires (but it is a good idea to disconnect the battery when doing this because the P wire on terminal 30 is connected directly to the battery). I don't have a 308QV to examine, but my guess is that you should be able to move the existing female contacts around in your existing socket to make it work correctly. Worst case, you would remove the female contacts from the socket and then plug the female contacts onto the new TR/328 protection relay (and not use the plastic socket), but you shouldn't have to cut any wires. (Usually these female sockets are removed by going in from the front side with a small jeweler's screwdriver and bending a small metal tab inward. The female terminal + wire can then be withdrawn out the back of the socket. Prior to reinstallation, bend the little tab outward again, and it should "click" into place when you reinstall the female terminal + wire.)

This jpeg is my best cut at a clear set of instructions -- fell free to give a shout if you need something else:
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So, are you saying that the FV is now buzzing (and it wasn't before) -- but the runability is unchanged?

 

So are you saying that you do now have +12V on the PN (beige/black) wire at the frequency valve connector (when the engine is running), but the FV does not vibrate?

(I don't like your report that you hooked up the wires to the new protection relay incorrectly initially. Have you confirmed that the new protection relay itself is still OK and working? -- that is, when terminal 15 is at +12V and terminal 31 is at ground, terminal 87 is connected to the +12V on terminal 30 -- which should put +12V on the PN wire at the frequency valve connector when the engine is running.)

 

I understand your description of events perfectly clearly, but it doesn't make sense how your protection relay was originally connected -- not only because it doesn't match the schematic in your OM, but because these terminal numbers (30, 31, etc.) have industry "standardized" uses/conventions associated with them that just don't make sense for how you report that they were originally hooked up.

I'd also be concerned that the way that they were connected, your car has had the mixture intentionally mistweaked (with the FV not working) so, even if it was warm-running OKish before, it was running as a K-Jet without Lambda. Maybe something has now gone wrong with your WUR so even that (uncorrect K-Jet without Lambda) mode is now not working well, so, even if you get the FV working as it should, you may have other problems that need to be addressed and/or need to have the mixture retweaked.

However, I can say, with certainty, that your FV should be vibrating whenever the engine is running (i.e., there should be +12V power on the PN wire at the FV) so IMO you have no choice but to keep digging until you get the FV working. If it still runs poorly with the FV working, then you (or the Mechanic) would go to the next step to confirm/deny the various fuel pressures (cold and warm control pressures and the regulated supply pressure) and retweak the mixture if necessary.

My suggestion would be (with the key "off", and the engine not running, but with the battery connected, and the FV unplugged) to remove the new protection relay and use a jumper wire to directly connect the large P (beige) wire from terminal 30 directly to the three PN (beige/black) wires from terminal 87. Using your voltmeter then confirm that:

1. The large P wire is +12V (relative to the large N, black wire and another ground -- like the cylinder head casting), and

2. The PN (beige/black) wire in the FV connector is also +12V relative to the large N (black) wire and another ground.

If those two conditions are met, plug the FV back in and start the engine (with the jumper wire still in place) -- confirm/deny if the FV is vibrating when the engine is running.

If those two conditions aren't met (with the jumper in place), you have some very strange wiring problem (and we'll go from there ).

 

Patrick -- any new information? Did you give up?

 

Nothing too special -- can be a simple as a short piece of 14~16~18 gauge wire with 1/4~3/8" of the insulation removed from each end that you would touch/mate to the female spade contacts in the relay socket in order to electrically connect them. Something a little more professional would be a short piece of 14~16~18 gauge wire with male spade terminals on each end that would better mate with the two female spade terminals in the relay socket. Here's an example of an illustration from a F WSM where they are instructing the Mechanic to remove a (different) relay and use a jumper wire to connect the 30 terminal in its relay socket to the 87 terminal in its relay socket:
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No rush -- give a shout when you know more.

 

I am watching this thread with great interest , , sooner or later I will need it.

I hope this is an additional help , , I recently got a colored wiring diagram from this site....

http://www.ferrari308gtbi.com/Wiring308.php

.....Wow ! Why on earth were wiring diagrams ever drawn in black and white with silly codes to keep searching for.

I got mine printed in A1 size (about 24" x 36") and it's easy to read. The print guy used to be an auto electrician and immediately went ahead and laminated it with a satin plastic so it will endure workshop life and be easy to read.