How do you define Ferrari “Soul”? | FerrariChat

How do you define Ferrari “Soul”?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by TimF40, Oct 26, 2009.

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  1. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    How do you define Ferrari “Soul”?

    I’ve been wrestling with this for quite a while now. As I get older and have access to more “stuff”, I find myself becoming intolerant and downright impatient with my toys, especially my cars.

    As it pertains to cars, what makes a Ferrari have “soul”, more than other brands? What makes many German or Japanese (substitute with your target brand) cars lack “soul”?

    Even this board, myself included, has many references to car “x” has no soul.

    Complicating matters for me is when I find a car with more “soul” than my other cars, I begin to divest myself of said other cars. It’s a never ending hunt for the king of soul. ;-)

    e.g., In my case, I’ve traded up through the usual Corvettes and Porsches to Ferraris. As soon as I drove my old 360 Modena for the first time, I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. Now, my F40 has ruined me. All new Ferraris for me, lack the “soul” of my F40. This sucks big time as I’m struggling with finding something new, within my means, of something with as much or more “soul” as my F40.

    Yea, I know, ramble, ramble, ramble… Bear with me.

    After thinking about it for a few minutes, I can’t define “soul” for myself. However, I can state some symptoms of soul:

    * to be in touch with the car’s every twitch and sound
    * to have an engine sound that is unlike anything else on the road
    * to stir my emotions when I drive it
    * to stir my emotions when I look at it
    * to stir my emotions when I wash it!
    * to stir my emotions when I talk about it!
    * to have some quirkiness about it (e.g., F40 cable door pulls, handmade car, etc…)

    1. How to do *you* define soul?
    2. What cars have soul?
    3. What cars don’t?

    Tim
     
  2. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
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    That is a good list Tim, I would agree with everything you mentioned.
     
  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    #3 ttforcefed, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    for me its simple, its the butterflies in the belly. when u look at it, when u get in it, when ur sitting at a stop sign, when u hear it.

    then u see a random pic and u feel like ur a kid again, and then u realize, wait, i own one of those! and the butterflies start again.

    and PS, once u get an f40, its over. very few other cars will give u any satisfaction aftert that.
     
  4. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    A buddy of mine just purchased a Ducati. He was trying to figure out why he loved it so much. He didn't understand but he was beside himself with excitement.

    I had a new BMW motorcycle as did my brother, amazingly capable, but we both felt that the bike could probably do what we did without us. It made average riders feel like superheros, but at the same time we knew it was the bike, not us. He traded to a Buell, all guts, no refinement. He loved it and felt like it had more soul. When we say soul, we are personifying. My Ferrari requires constant input. My eyes don't come off the road. With a Honda Accord I could probably read the paper and the car would still be on the road. In the Ferrari I'd be around a telephone pole in 2 seconds. I guess what I'm getting at is teamwork. My BMW doesn't care what I do to or with it. The Ferrari seems to take offense if I don't drive it right, shift right, etc.

    let's define love in the next post.
     
  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    My Dino and my 2 308's had what I would call "character".

    They were far from perfect. They were in fact at times a bit annoying. They were fragile and tempermental. They didn't work the way they were supposed to all the time. But, they were special because they had personality -- like you could see the logic of some specific person's mind when they were designed.

    My F430 is a bit too perfect to have what I would call "personality". Everything is a bit too logical.

    Do I miss them? Well, yes and no. I like the fact that owning a Ferrari no longer means you have to suffer. I like the raw power, the outstanding performance, the steering feel, and the reliability (not to mention AC that actually works). But, something is also lost. Like a Stepford wife, they may be a little too perfect.

    But, it still stirs my emotion when I see it and driving it is a pleasure I will never get tired of. It's still a winner in my books and there isn't another sports car made today that I would trade for it.
     
  6. Hexnut72

    Hexnut72 Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2006
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    #6 Hexnut72, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    If you want to drive a car with what you refer to as soul, try a Kirkham 427 SC.

    With an aluminum 427/482, 600hp and 600tq, manual steering, manual brakes and less than 2100 lbs, I think it has no equal. It is very direct, very immediate. No top, no heater nothing extra at all. Hell, you have to turn on the cooling fan if it starts getting hot. If you don't treat it with respect it will eat your lunch. It will make you lol with joy as you drive the thing.

    I have not driven a vintage Ferrari, but I am sure it is much the same. Knowing that you have to keep an eye on its vitals and properly care for it gives you a sense of interaction that is gone with newer cars.

    I think modern cars have all lost this appeal. I so looked forward to driving a Ferrari for the first time. It was an amazing experience (F430 F1) but I felt the car was lacking this soul that you speak of. It is only getting worse as more computers and "systems" step in to do your job.

    PS - Nissan GT-R has very little soul. It is fast as stink, but it is so good at going fast, it is almost not fun. Nothing to master because the car does that for you. I think the Ford GT still has quite a bit of soul.
     
  7. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
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    Nov 5, 2002
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    #7 Dom, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    How do you define soul?

    It's the black spot on your garage floor. You know, where you usually park the ferrari when it's not at the mechanic ;)
     
  8. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    #8 TimF40, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    That's been my problem as well. I keep comparing my newer cars with the F40 and I find myself wanting.

    My F430 Spider is too refined for my tastes. Great car, yes, but not enough drama.

    On a "soul" scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is a doorknob and 10 is the best you've felt about a car, how would you rate:

    - F40: 10
    - 360 Spider: 8 (I loved that thing!)
    - F430 Spider: 7-
    - 550: 7- (but I still love mine)
    - CGT?
    - 911?
    - F50?
    - Enzo?
    - 355?
     
  9. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    f355, e30 m3, e36 m3, all on my soul approved list. i ll never sell the 355. 430 was cool to drive but a whatever.

    CGT is insane engineering but almost no soul for me!
     
  10. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Bullfighter, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    "Soul" is probably about the connectedness between the designer, driver, mechanicals and road. Hand made cars have more of this than mass-produced cars, which is why older Ferraris (and Jaguars and Porsches) are so different than the newer ones. They're also very different from one another: sit in a 1970 Daytona, 911S and E-Type and it's immediately obvious they use different engines/gearboxes and originated in different countries. Sit in a new Lexus, Mercedes and BMW sedan blindfolded and I think the difference would be harder for most people to figure out.

    There are few cars built after the mid-'70s that strike me as having much soul, because plastic isn't all that soulful, and digital anything (gauges, climate control, etc.) dilutes the mechanical joy of a car -- i.e., compare the Daytona instrumental panel with the 599. Only Ferrari could have done the Daytona.

    I have never come across a Japanese car with soul. I don't know why, but I think it's because they were all built with rational production in mind from day one, whereas the Italians didn't think about this until the '90s. This is probably why Ferrari continued to make exciting cars long after the Germans had focus-grouped the 911 into a luxury tourer.

    Among the German cars, the older Porsches have it. Rev a pre-'74 911S and it sounds like nothing else on the road. The 356s have the integrity of an old mechanical watch. They look, sound, feel and smell like an old German car. The 996 and 997 are sterile in comparison.

    And the Ferraris prior to '75 are legendary. I think the F40 was the tail end of the really raw Ferraris -- they feel like they were built in a workshop, with practically nothing from a parts bin. You climb into an F40 (or 308/328) and you're in race mode, not cruise mode. Their cockpits aren't lounges.

    What he said, although the Ford GT modern retro version doesn't hold a candle to the real GT40. Too much plastic inside, in the same way the new MINI doesn't recapture the soul of the original.

    I haven't driven a GT-R yet, but can't really say I'd stop to have a look at one.

    OTOH, I saw a pretty Lotus Elite for sale at Symbolic this weekend, and you could almost hear Colin Chapman walking you through the features...
     
  11. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

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    Any object I find myself relating to by talking to it has soul in my book. From the stuffed bear I had when I was three to my 599 sitting in the garage.
     
  12. kerrari

    kerrari Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I would say a car has 'soul' when you still love it, and wouldn't part with it, even when it's broken...
     
  13. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    I think it's something that you can't easily put your finger on, something very personal. You know it should only be a machine but it's more than that, much more.

    I once had a chat with a guy working for Maranello Concessionaires in the UK, who's job was driving customers cars to and from the dealership. He told me despite all the cars he drove, they all felt different and had their own little quirks, like they all had their own personalities. He'd done the same job for BMW, Ford, Mercedes etc, and said none of those makes gave you the same feeling. He'd been there 3 years and said that to him, it was the best job in the world (and yes, I was Ssssoooo jealous! :) ).

    To Me it's the automotive equivelant of love:

    She doesn't have to be perfect.
    She doesn't have to be desirable to everyone else.
    She doesn't have to turn everybodies head when you go down the street (but you get a sense of pride if it happens).
    She'll annoy you on occasions, but you know you'll forgive her.
    You'll spend more money on her than makes financial sense, but you won't care.
    She makes you smile everytime you see her and your heart beats a little faster.
    You revel in the moments that you are intimate together.
    You miss her when she's not around and can't wait to see her again.
    You feel very protective of her.
    You worry when she's not well.
    You know to some it makes no sense but you just don't care, because you know it's special and you don't have to justify yourself.


    Sure you'll tell people it's just a car at the end of the day, but you know you don't really mean it.

    If you meet someone or have someone in your life who makes you feel all of the above then whatever you do, don't let them go!.
    (Unless they say "it's either me or the Ferrari!". On that one, think seriously before you decide! ;) )
     
  14. RSQP

    RSQP F1 World Champ
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    #14 RSQP, Oct 27, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
    How about adding * to stir my emotions when I sit in it and smell it.

    I had a chance to drive a 1969 Porsche 914/6 GT last week. That car had some soul, many quirks, etc. but it had more soul than my 997 GT3, but not as much soul as my Scuderia. I have had cars that I've loved while I had them but once they are gone, they are quickly forgotten. Carburation may play a factor in this.

    This was an excellent question. I think soul might be how much you love the car in spite of the excuses you make for it's inadequacies, quirks, and shortcomings. It may also be related to how quickly it can kill you if you aren't paying attention while driving it and how big of a smile you have on your face while it's trying to do so. Regardless, I don't think one condition or quality can possibly sum it up.
     
  15. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Interesting thoughts.

    It is clearly a subjective set of emotions that make a car a keeper.

    288 GTO has it the most of any Ferraris I have owned. 997GT3RS does not, 993RS has bigtime.
     
  16. nsxnick

    nsxnick Formula 3

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    The Ferrari's soul is any intangible feel-good attribute to justify overpaying for a headache ridden sports car.
     
  17. Lorenzini

    Lorenzini Karting

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    An interesting discussion, in my 75 years I have owned many cars some bad some good and many so so. Have been through the hot rod, muscle car and import era's and only a few of these had real soul.
    In my opinion the soul went out of the automobile in the 60's.
    Soul is when you can smell the Castrol, hear the engine and gear box houl, feel the raw power and have the sensation of being in control. where you have to anticipate each and every move-without electronic devices thinking for you.
    Of my many cars the ones with the greatest soul are memorable for there purity and rawness, such the 300SL roadster, 250GT swb,DB4/Gt,1750 Monza and the 1933 Alfa 1750 Z.
    You do not need a Sterio to entertain you, these cars demanded you full attention, that is soul.
    I no longer enjoy driving my Ferrari's or Aston Martins, I like my truck with all the creature comforts, beleive me it has no soul and I still like it.

    As for love, have had one bad wife, the present one is a keeper, but perfection does not exist, just as plus-minus zero does not exist, I still strive for that ever alluding perfection.
     
  18. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Spot on.

    And you've owned some serious cars.
     
  19. Street&Track

    Street&Track Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
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    The soul of a car is a complex mix of raw technology and design. Any make or model can have soul but it is up to the driver to extract it.

    With Ferraris it is a bit different. Every Ferrari has racing in it's DNA. Ferrari is one of the few, if not the only manufacturers that built race cars first and road cars second.

    In the older Ferraris you could extract the soul of the car just by giving it a little extra gas and trying to keep it on the road. There was always a complex mix of mechanical roars and sounds and smells and sights that came out of the car whenever you drove it, even when not driving on the limit.

    With the newer Ferraris I have noticed that you have to drive them to the limit to extract their soul. And that is now only possible for me on a race track. But be careful what you wish for. I have had 6 Ferraris so far and the F430 is the first one to scare me when it is on the limit and the fact that it gets there way faster than any Ferrari I owned before it.

    Your car may have a soul, but beware it may turn out to be a goblin.

    Nice Halloween tie-in.
     
  20. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    I call bagsy on the Ferrari's!. Please allow Me to enjoy driving them for you, no charge, honest! :)
     
  21. venusone

    venusone F1 Rookie

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    Has over 20 year history & is virtually unchanged. Well balanced true sports car that is simply a blast to drive on track or street with form follows function design. All that & affordable too. Wait a minute... Any one who drives will smile especially w/ top down. Zoom, zoom. You mean like with a Miata?
     
  22. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    Miata has 1/3 of a soul. Porsche 911 has half a soul. Corvette has been allotted 2/3 of a soul.

    Get where I am going with this? Has something to do with the firing order...
     
  23. venusone

    venusone F1 Rookie

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    I'm surprised & elated you give Miata 1/3 soul considering the company. Miata stands proud!
     
  24. ARTNNYC

    ARTNNYC F1 Rookie
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    I am going to go out on a limb and say that for a modern car the Challenge Stradale has a very quirky and appealing character. Plus its nice to wash...
     
  25. rossocorsa13

    rossocorsa13 F1 Rookie

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    #25 rossocorsa13, Oct 30, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    I get what you're saying...my ride in a Stradale ranks high on the list of compelling experiences I've had in my short life...

    But let me go somewhere with that. I wouldn't say that the Stradale is quirky, although I would agree that it is extremely appealing. I would say that with cars like the Stradale, Ferrari have figured out what is necessary to give the illusion of soul.

    The Stradale has three things about it that make it compelling: The look, the sound, and the speed. These characteristics have all been optimized to an extremely high degree; more so than any other aspect of the car. Why? Because every single car, be it a Ferrari or Toyota, is now produced in the same mindless way: Robots run by computers. And so when Ferrari asks itself, "What will compel the potential buyer to make a purchase?", it is forced to summarize the main indicators of "soul" in a car and exaggerate them. Thus modern day "soul" is produced.

    In contrast, a car like a 288 GTO has one thing, and one thing only, that makes it compelling: It was made by hand. Every aspect of the car was touched, had eyebrows raised at it, left residue on someone's hands, was placed somewhere by mechanical measuring tools and sight alone. It wasn't formed in the wind tunnel, wasn't limited by crash structures, wasn't plagued by Nurburgring lap times. It was man imparting himself in machine, not a machine parting together another.

    Soul is largely gone and has been replaced by its illusory twin: Sensation.
     

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