What are the Symptoms of a Bad Fuel Accumulator (on a 328) ? | FerrariChat

What are the Symptoms of a Bad Fuel Accumulator (on a 328) ?

Discussion in '308/328' started by italia16, Jul 21, 2009.

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  1. italia16

    italia16 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    If my 328 sits for a day or more, it starts very rough. It cranks and starts but is struggling and will die as I start to push on the gas pedal to get more fuel in. The second try it will start and come to life as I push on the pedal more but it is rough for a few seconds. Then, the engine is normal while warming up and when driving. It also starts fine while the engine is warm. This is in Florida so it is a warm weather environment.

    This began occurring after the car was serviced (changed coolant, oil and replaced right radiator fan relay) but it may be unrelated to it. Also, the battery is only a few months old and it cranks fine. I never had to push on the pedal before to get it to start, only to get the battery/alternator light to go out, which is normal for 308/328s. With fuel injection, I should not have to push on the pedal.

    I looked through the archives and did some other research. So far, that has taken me in these directions:

    1. Coolant temperature sensor -- disconnected it and cleaned contacts
    2. Frequency/metering valve -- cleaned contacts and verified it is vibrating and the fuel pump is running
    3. Aux air valve
    4. Cold start injector -- cleaned contacts in plug
    5. Thermo time switch
    6. Fuel pump pressure relief valve
    7. Fuel injection delivery pump starting relay

    It seems like a fuel problem where the fuel pressure is decreasing with time or the coolant temp sensor is not getting the signal to the cold start injector to put fuel in. I was thinking of trying to see if voltage is getting to the injector plug.

    Thanks for any help.
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,183
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
    This is good (if you mean the coolant thermoswitch in the expansion tank), but you should really check to see if it is functioning properly. The 328 coolant thermoswitch logic is -- it should be closed when "cold" and "open" when warm. When it is closed, it runs the air injection system, and it also "tells" the injection ECU "I'm cold" so the injection ECU increases the (open-loop) FV duty cycle to add richness. As a test, unplug the coolant thermoswitch and add a jumper wire to connect the two wires in the harness (simulating a "closed" cold thermoswitch) -- see if that has any effect on the cold start-up behavior (of course, only do this as a brief test as you don't want the air injection system operating during warm-running).

    Also goodness (confirms that the protection relay is properly supplying +12V power to run the injection system), but, as described above, the FV duty cycle when running cold should be different from when running warm so the next level would be to quantify the FV duty cycle when cold vs warm.

    Nothing wrong with doing this, but it only supplies a short squirt of fuel during starter motor cranking to initiate engine light-off. If your bad cold running persists for many seconds (and the engine does light-off OK), these are signs that this system is working -- but nothing wrong with putting a voltmeter, or a test light, in parallel with the cold start injector coil winding to confirm/deny.

    One thing that you haven't mentioned is the warm-up regulator (WUR). This (horrible ;)) gizmo is the analog (thermomechanical) "computer" that is supposed to lower the control pressure during cold-running so the airflow metering plate deflects more for the same airflow which adds richness for cold-running. Measuring the cold and warm fuel control pressures (and the fuel supply pressures) is they only way I'm aware of that you can test the WUR for proper operation (and then compare the results to the specs in the WSM).

    Good Hunting! You said it correctly with "With fuel injection, I should not have to push on the pedal" -- something needs to be fixed.
     
  3. italia16

    italia16 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    Thanks for explaining the details on how the system works. I will investigate further and let you know what I find out.
     
  4. porkface

    porkface Rookie

    Mar 9, 2006
    4
    if you have steel fuel injectors, my money's on them. they rust and drip fuel while off. mercedes went to brass injectors awhile ago because of this. they and ferrari were the last kjet cars on the planet. i saw this many a time on mbs and then last year on the first 512bbi i ever worked on. and it had 6k miles on it. not cheap to buy-'bout 40 usd ea, i think-but they will make a difference. good luck, chuck.
     
  5. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Twin Cities
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    Tim Keseluk
    #5 2NA, Jul 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2009
    Possibly cold-start injector, more likely warm-up regulator.

    Unfortunately the warm-up regulator is a fairly expensive item that is not always available new.

    They can be bought rebuilt for quite a bit less than new.

    Test fuel system pressures (main and control) to identify the problem. If the control pressure isn't significantly lower than the main supply pressure at startup the fuel/air mixture will be too lean to easily start.

    Dirty fuel injectors that "squirt" instead of "spray" can be a problem but usually can be cleaned, although you need a special machine to do it.
     
  6. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    Feb 17, 2006
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    Brian Harper
    Do a search here for vendors for the brass injectors. I bought some a month ago for $20 ea.
     
  7. italia16

    italia16 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    I took Steve's suggestion to check if the coolant thermoswitch in the expansion tank was functioning properly. I unplugged the two wires to the thermoswitch and added a jumper wire to connect the wires to simulate a "closed" cold thermoswitch. The car started without pressing on the gas pedal and went to high idle (richness) like normal. Previously, it struggled to start only after pushing on the pedal after light off and never went to high idle. So, this test isolated the problem to the thermoswitch by confirming that the air injection system and ECU control of richness is working and possibly the cold start injector and warm-up regulator are okay.

    I cleaned the contacts again, reconnected the wires and tried it a couple days later. It started again without help and warmed up normally.

    Thanks very much for the help, I will watch it carefully to see if replacement of the thermoswitch is necessary.
     
  8. motor duck

    motor duck Rookie

    Jan 3, 2009
    10
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Mark S
    This thread was a massive help to me with an identical problem. However, I would like to help anyone who reads it. The “coolant thermoswitch in the expansion tank” is NOT located in the expansion tank. That is a good old temperature sender. The Thermoswitch or “thermo time switch” which controls the cold start injector is located in the bottom of the V to the right of the oil filter. Mine was not supplying a ground to the cold start injector and was defective. If the switch fails to conduct a ground to the cold start injector it will fail to spay fuel while the engine is cranking on the starter motor and a few seconds after start up. Maybe the sender in the expansion tank is connected to the circuit but as far as I can tell its not. If I am missing something please correct me. I would hate to make someone go through a wild Goose chase!

    Thanks to everyone who writes about their F car experiences,
    MS.
     
  9. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    A faulty accumulator will give difficult starting when engine is warm. Your cold start problem does sound like a 'lack or fuel' problem and can be due to bad WUR which modifies the fuel pressure as the engine warms up. The best way to know is with a fuel pressure gauge, tapped into the fuel lines. Harbour Freight quality units are available for about $100, get extra copper crush washers for the banjo fittings.
     
  10. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Dave Helms
    Simply pull the small safety fuel return hose off the accumulator after the engine is shut off. If there is leakage out of the accumulator it needs replacement.
     
  11. Robz328

    Robz328 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2009
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    Rob Hemphill
    Doesn't the check valve in the fuel pump hold the back-pressure, and don't the fuel injectors keep the system pressurized?

    Apart from a crack or leak, how would the fuel accumulator be at fault?

    I do agree with Dave that if there is fuel in the return from the Acc to the tank, then the Acc is flat broken.
     
  12. cockrill

    cockrill Formula 3
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    Jan 23, 2008
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    Columbia, MO
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    Jeremy Cockrill
    When my fuel accumulator (Mondial QV) went bad amount of gas would "squirt" out the return fitting whenever I started the car. Just that one squirt -- otherwise the car ran fine. I replace the accumulator (around $100 online) and no more squirts.
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,183
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    The check valve closes the system after shutoff, but, without the Accumulator, if the temperature of the fuel in the system dropped a few degrees (which it will as the engine bay cools), the volume of the fuel would shrink a little and all pressure would be lost (liquid fuel is relatively uncompressible). The Accumulator is a "soft" storage chamber that has a much lower pressure change for a given volume change -- this greatly reduces the overall change in pressure if the captured fuel itself changes volume a little due to temperature changes.
     
  14. maestro8

    maestro8 Formula 3
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    Dec 2, 2009
    2,054
    Nor Cal
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    Jason
    Where'bouts did you find a $100 accumulator? I've got a Mondi 3.2 that needs a new one but I can't find it for any less than $200...
     
  15. tepps

    tepps Karting

    Oct 15, 2010
    103
    Buffalo NY
    Full Name:
    Tom Tepas
    You need your accumulator for cold starts. It maintains fuel pressure and some volume for the FI system before the fuel pump kicks in.Think of it as basically a can with a strong spring and diaphragm in it . the can fills with fuel , rubber diaphragmwith spring behind it pushes against fuel to maintain pressure after the car is shut off. If they go bad there is a small vacuum line on the back that directs leaking fuel into intake.
     

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