Drag race - stock 458 Italia versus 65 Shelby

I have a fair amount of seat time in a 600hp Kirkham and an F430.

A Kirkham will weigh in around 2100 pounds without the driver so the power to weight ratio with an aluminum stroker motor is very, very good. The Kirkham is going to be very difficult to get off the line though. A well tuned 427 FE stroker makes so much torque from way down low that it can be difficult to modulate the throttle and get all that power to the ground. Most guys run a TKO 600 gear box that can be a little "notchy", especially on the critical 2-3 upshift.

You buddy needs to focus on the a couple things.

1. Make sure the car is tuned and running properly.

2. Practice his starts. He is going to want to practice a few techniques, different rpm's, clutch releases etc... You are both going to want to learn to launch from whatever kind of tree the track will be using. If you do a search on practice trees you can find them online. Call the track and see which configuration they use.

3. Burnouts. If he is using Goodyear "Billboards" or other semi competition tires, he is going to want to heat them up and run lower pressures. Learn how to get some heat in the tires before launch.

4. Shifts. Find out the smoothest and fastest way to hit the gears. A failed up shift could ruin his day in a lot of ways.

5. Be safe. Both cars are fast, but the Cobra is going to be way more challenging to drive even in a straight line.

 

Nice of ClubCobra to start bashing us for a slow response to the thread. Here's rolling eyes back at you Stentor! Hehehe

Anyway, it would be interesting to see the result. My money would definitely be on you in the Ferrari at this point - especially since it sounds like your friend is missing third gear in the practise runs. If your friend was an experienced drag racer then it might have be a close one. You probably won't need it, but good luck all the same!

Any pictures of the 458? Post them up here or in the 458 section.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Oh my. 2010 technology vs 1960 technology.... and you wonder the outcome?

Depending on the skill of the Cobra driver, the best he can hope to reach is maybe 12.5 @ 125ish.

With the launch control of the 458, you'll be a full second in front of him. Yeah for you.

If you want a real test, turn the traction control off and see how well you do. Just make sure you pay the insurance bill first.

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But if this -as you say- all about bragging rights, it's a testament to Carrol Shelby's creation that almost a half century later, you're wondering if you can beat him a quarter million dollar car.

In that regard, you're already the loser.

 

Well, it's more that he's wondering if he can beat him in a modern supercar rather than a quarter million dollar car. There are older Ferraris worth much more that aren't as powerful, as fast, or as nimble as the 458.

Which Ferrari of the 1960s would you be interested to see pitted against the Shelby?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

nah... I'm just saying, throw half a century and a quarter mill at the problem and the fact that outcome is in question might speak as loudly as the actual results. (or at least in my book)

 

Wasnt the Cobra the first to do 0-100mph-0 in 10secs. Thats still awefully fast today!

 

I think that you're underestimating the "old technology"

I've run mid 12's with my stock 2004 Z06 (406 hp and 3100 lbs bone stock as delivered with stock Goodyear F1 tires)... and I'm not the hottest shoe in the world.

A good Kirkham with 600 hp will EASILY be in the mid-11's on street tires. I've seen magazine articles with those kinds of times in them. Just plug 2300 pounds and 600 hp into any of the 1/4 mile calculators that you can look up on the web. That will be a wakeup call if there ever was one... If he could put the power down he will be down the track in under 10 seconds. If he shows up with a set of drag slicks and is a good driver it would be a heck of a race...

Drag racing is more of specialized sport that doesn't take into consideration technology so much as it does brute force and traction. A shorter, taller car with big power can get down a 1/4 mile in a hurry if it has some sticky tires. Yes the Cobra is hitting a brick wall with aerodynamics, but that will only trim the top end a bit. It's still gonna get down a drag strip in a hurry....

 

Ask the boys over on the Cobra forum if they can beat a Buick first.....then we'll move on to the 458. Heck of a launch though.....


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4lNVdXYB7s[/ame]

 

I've seen all kinds of things in magazines too. I prefer real life.

A good Kirkham with 600 hp will EASILY be run into the wall or worse when some yahoo thinks his checkbook will make him a race driver. (no offense to your pal TG)

Just ride shotgun on car with more torque than the driver can handle and mix it ginormous egos... THAT will be a wake-up call if there ever was one...

IF... now there's a word.

You've never driven a Shelby have you?

It's nothing like reading a magazine. I promise.

 

No but I've run the quarter in less than 10 seconds, so I think I understand driving high powered cars at the strip a bit more than most of the folks on here that have never been to the strip, and yes the driver and the setup of the car are huge factors when cars get this fast.

If the Kirkham actually has 600 hp, a set of real drag slicks and the guy can drive it will be a real race. If the driver is a wanker or the car is on old tires, it's a recipe for disaster and it's likely that he could get hurt.

 

Most replies to tommygold's thread on the Cobra site willingly state that tommygold will win; however, here is a link to a 10 second Cobra (not the guy tommygold is racing): [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-whV_8NhNXk[/ame]

 

If he has road racing slicks you will likely beat him handily. Road racing slicks are nowhere near as good as a set of drag radials for this kind of thing. Let him put on a set of drag radials and make a race out of it....

 

For what it's worth, this image shows what a genuine (original) Cobra is capable of in a drag race. This was done during a Supercars Competition in about 1989, where the Cobra was up against many modified cars, incl high boost turbocharged Ferraris. The Cobra driver was not a drag racer and he was using road race tires of the same type and construction like was outfitted on the race cars back in the 60's. The engine was a 60's vintage example of the top Cobra powerplant at the time, the high riser, with the 58mm weber setup that Shelby American had developed as part of the package to run on the team race cars - but the engine in this particular car was the heavy cast iron version and the heads were not even ported, which the factory race cars were. Modern versions of the 427 Ford engine can make notably more power than this in large part due to the significantly higher cylinder head port flow rates. Cobra 427's set up for drag (slicks, etc) were documented to be as fast as about 10.6 seconds in the quarter back in 1966-67.

The thing that should be kept in mind by Ferrari people is that the 458 comes quite optimized right from the factory. Original Cobras were so much ahead of their time (i.e. faster than anything else on the street) and Shelby American was loosing money on them and Ford bean counters were beating on them, so that they tended to sell them in more stripped form with all the real good parts offered (or services at the factory if desired) and setup details to be performed by the owner/racer at their expense, if they felt the need. Now consider trying to compete against something 45 years into the future and you can appreciate that everything has to be configured optimally to have any reasonable chance. The Kirkham cars and any other replica are no exception to setup issues. Things like the combination of transmission and rear end gear ratios can have a significant impact in results and all these aspects tend to be done by relative ameteurs with Cobra-type cars, vs performed by engineers at Ferrari. If anyone can get ahold of a dyno plot of a 458 engine, if it's similar to other modern supercars you will see how linear the output is till up near redline. Many Cobra engines have been configured to make alot of power down low to feel fast and have good manners at low rpm on the street, resulting in a hump in the power curve. When drag racing this is not ideal, as the car can have a hard time hooking up and then once you are going down the track the engine is often being operated in a regime where the power is dropping off. As a result of issues like these and many more, there is far more variability in performance with "Cobras". Most replica Cobras also weigh more than original Cobras, with the rare exception being something like a Kirkham with all the latest billet aluminum suspension and other pieces on them. To really make this interesting and fair, a Kirkham should be selected that has already demonstrated it is set up well and can perform competitively with the 458. Just my 2 cents.
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Thats Fast! We had a replica Excalibur with just a plain old 5.0 beefed up and it made my hair stand up during accel

 

But who's fault is it a 458 is a quarter million dollar car?
We can argue today's Viper is a better competitor, but those are not cheap today, either.

In 1965 the average car was what, $3,000?
What was a house? A gallon of gas? A gallon of milk?
You simply cannot compare price tags from different eras the way you are trying to.

 

I think you misread me or misunderstood me Whiskey. But that's ok. ;-)

 

How did I misread you?

'Throw half a century and a quarter mill at the problem....' ??????????????????

 

I'm not comparing price tags from different eras.. I'm just saying, how many mechanical or technological things 50 years old can keep up with a super premium product from today? Almost none.

He (Shellby guy) is not racing against a Kia here... He's putting it up against a state of the art machine with a half century of engineering in it.

The fact the outcome is even being debated is really a testament to how advanced Shelly's creation was. In a way, the fact the outcome is not a foregone conclusion says more about the Shellby than the final results of this one race.

Get it?

Edit: Whiskey, you might watch this to help make the point.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4qocLLmijY[/ame]

 

Most Cobras came with the 428 CI, only the SC had the 427.

If you rate the 428 at 365 to 400HP it will probably 1/4 in 12.5 to 12.8.
These are well documented times in the 60's and seventies.
The 0-100-0 time of 10sec was a stop watch time with an SC car by Ken Miles.
I think it was closer to 12.5 seconds.
R & T tested a Cobra in the late late 80's and the best they could get with a 428 car was
in the 14 second range.

But, I don't expect much of race if the Cobra driver is conservative on the start. With that
much power (600) he will more than likely have a trap speed in the 128 to 135 range.

It will be no contest ( 458) at the start, but the cubes and power will show in the last 300ft.

Can't wait for the fun.

I have no preference.

 

With modern tires and a good tune a 427 can run in the low 10's. A 428 CJ in a mustang can run in the mid 11's with good tires. Granted these cars where built for straight line acceleration. Lots of torque. I wouldn't want to take a corner in a big block mustang at speeds over 60 mph

 

412monzaindy, Shelby American made approximately 300 big block Cobras and of them only about 100 came with 428's (to save $). Shelby American was a small entrepreneurial race shop unlike Ford, GM or even Ferrari. Many of their cars (including race cars) were sold relatively stripped not only for reasons I previously mentioned, but right when the Cobra 427 development was finishing, Ford's (and Shelby American's) emphasis had shifted to the GT40 program. The big block Cobra didn't even receive FIA homologation for the '65 season as the decreased lack of attention to the car resulted in not enough examples being built when the FIA inspectors came around. So there never was a factory backed race effort and all the neat things in the pipeline were shelved. The race-bred aura surrounding the Cobra was still there, however, and most of the big block cars had optional components fitted after delivery that Shelby American had developed for them, along with other period typical race modifications, and even many street cars were raced in various types of competition. By the 70's it was rare to even find a 428 engine in one of the cars that originally came that way. So what configuration is really fair to compare?