166 Barchetta

**Artvonne** · #1 12-06-2004, 01:05 AM

Does anyone know of any sources that would show the blueprint or layout of the frame tubing on a 166? It would be interesting to see how the cars were physically put together and the layout.

PSk · #2 12-06-2004, 04:55 PM

I'm pretty sure this site has posted a link to the company that used to make these frames for Ferrari before. The company still exists ...

BUT think very simple ladder frame, not to dissimilar to a Model T Ford

(except large oval tubes).

It took many years before Ferrari chassis' graduated from 2 main chassis members running the length of the car with a few extra members to hold on to things. Even the 250GTO is a ladder frame with a lot of bracing.

I think it was possibly the P cars that moved Ferrari into true spaceframes ... but I could be wrong.

Pete

**Boudewijn** · #3 12-06-2004, 05:14 PM

Small pic, but it gives some idea.

PSk · #4 12-06-2004, 05:18 PM

Are you sure that chassis is not just to hold the wire frame for the body ... cause it does not look right at all. It is made of square members and has cross members, etc.

I think this is a mock up for creating the body, or some art work. Ferrari did not make chassis' out of square members ... round or oval.

Pete

EDIT: Okay I did a little search and found this site. This company is restoring a 166 MM... http://www.dkeng.com/stock_list_deta...p?l=3&t=3&i=49.

This photo shows the engine in the car, and you can see the 2 main ladder frame members ... http://www.dkeng.com/images/stock/16...ngineincar.JPG.

Unfortunately I cannot find the chassis tube manufacturer as their site has drawings of the very, very simple chassis' of that period.

Found another at http://www.paulrussell.com

. This picture here shows the rear axle and surrounding chassis: http://www.paulrussell.com/ss_f_0006mm/d_008.jpg.

This picture shows a naked 166 chassis and supporting body tubes: http://www.paulrussell.com/ss_f_0006mm/d_018.jpg

On this picture you can clearly see the 2 main ladder tubes: http://www.paulrussell.com/ss_f_0006mm/d_031.jpg

The chassis restored: http://www.paulrussell.com/ss_f_0006mm/d_051a.jpg

The chassis having bodywork fitted: http://www.paulrussell.com/ss_f_0006mm/d_051e.jpg. Note the chassis is the black part. The red tubes are to support the body work.

Great restoration!

**Artvonne** · #5 12-06-2004, 11:19 PM

Pete, that site is just awesome, tells quite a lot of how the car was built. Its also interesting how mean the car looks as it starts coming together, quite a leap back in the late 40's early 50's. I am also amazed that not only back then, but on my 308 as well, they are able to attach aluminum sheet to steel support structure. I dont even know how they attached it on the 308 unless its glued somehow, do you have any idea how it was attached back on the 166? They didnt rivet it on did they? If so, how do they isolate the metals? Anyone?

PSk · #6 12-07-2004, 05:51 PM

Krowbar,

I'm sorry I have no idea how they join aluminium and steel together. I do know that recently they discovered a metal/product that can be used as an intermediatry.

Maybe they just wrapped the allow around the steel ... or as you suggested used rivets.

Pete

**Artvonne** · #7 12-10-2004, 02:18 AM

anymore naked car pics? Those cars are really pretty with the clothing removed

**judge4re** · #8 12-10-2004, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krowbar

anymore naked car pics? Those cars are really pretty with the clothing removed

I have "naked" pics of 002C, I'll post them this weekend when I get a chance.

**T308** · #9 12-10-2004, 06:42 PM

Here's a photo of a 166 Sport Internazionale (1948 166SC). It's from Anselmi's Tipo 166 book. There are other line drawings of a 166MM/53 I can post if you're interested.

**judge4re** · #10 12-10-2004, 07:28 PM

As promised, here are some shots of 002C with various body panels removed.

**Artvonne** · #11 12-11-2004, 09:48 PM

Guys, this is great. I hope others are as excited as I am seeing these pictures. keep them coming if you can, I am in awe.

ilario · #12 12-14-2004, 03:39 PM

Does someone know the reference of the blue of 166MM 0346MM ?
Is it a metallic one ?

**Artvonne** · #13 12-23-2004, 01:10 AM

Boy, there sure don't appear to be very many people interested in these older cars. Seems odd.

**Smiles** · #14 12-23-2004, 10:09 AM

Hi, Paul. I'm definitely interested in these older cars.

As Pete described (and as both Pete and Erik provided fantastic pictures of), all Ferraris up to and including the Daytona were built in a very similar style. The main "backbone" consists of two tubes running the length of the car. (The tubes are oval in cross-section, being taller than they are wider.) There are then various crossmembers and other mounts that locate the front suspension, engine and transmission, the rear end, and body panels. (These last components are the ones that varied the most with the evolution of the cars, although it's still surprising how similar they are from the late 1940s to the early 1970s. The V-12 engine remained fairly similar also, changing only in detail, with the biggest change coming with two cams per cylinder bank.)

As for attatching alloy panels to steel substructure, it was all done mechanically, with either bolts, screws or rivets. The alloy panels themselves aren't simple skins as much as they are their own complex units. Edges might be hemmed, wire finished, or have alloy brackets welded to them that then mate up to the steel substructure.

I've attatched two pictures. Both are from the owner's manual of the 330 GT, which is my car, and the Ferrari I'm most familiar with. The first shows the car's undercarriage for a lubrication chart, and the second shows a 330 without any bodywork except the firewall. The lube chart is the closest thing I have to a blueprint.

--Matt

**judge4re** · #15 12-23-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krowbar

Boy, there sure don't appear to be very many people interested in these older cars. Seems odd.

Trust me, lots of people are interested in these old cars. I work hard during the day so that one day I may be able to open the garage door and see my own 166...

**Artvonne** · #16 12-24-2004, 12:06 AM

What I meant, was that if you go looking through posts, you see the how to jet a 308, or how to shine the seats on a 308, or why TR guys look down thier noses at..., and you see hundreds of responses.
A while back someone asked what was the most beautiful Ferrari. Looking at the posts it was a tossup between the early 308 and the F40/F50. A few Lussos made the list, but primarily it was the late70's to mid 80's cars. I was very surprised to not see so much as one Ferrari prior to 1960 mentioned in over 5 pages. Personally I find the 166MM and the pontoon fendered 58/59 TR to be among Ferraris most beautiful cars. And I guess I was a little surprised that my thread didnt gather more interest. But thats okay, you guys have more than made up for it.
To be truthful, I have had a dream through most of my adult life of building a car. I once toyed with the idea of a JAG V-12 in an Austin Healey 3000. I believe it could work but it seemed like it would be to powerful and to much of a handful. But then you see Vipers and I keep wondering.
I don't believe I would ever care to "copy" anything, surely not a Ferrari. But it sure is an interesting place to begin the "idea" That car just looks so fun and nasty.

**judge4re** · #17 12-24-2004, 07:31 AM

Okay, now I understand what you are trying to say Paul. There are two main reasons you don't hear too much about the older cars. One, there aren't that many of them out there. You mentioned the 166 MM and the 58/59 TR. Ferrari only made 7 166 MM berlinettas and 25 barchettas. There are only 2 TR 58's and 5 TR 59's that were ever produced. Beautiful, yes. But also very rare.

The second reason is that now that almost all of them that you mentioned are well over a million to buy, they don't come out that often to play and when they do, the owner usually has a small army fiddling with them.

Still, the older Ferraris are very cool cars. I've been a Ferrari owner since I was 23 and always wanted a 166 Inter in the garage to fiddle with myself...

**Smiles** · #18 12-26-2004, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krowbar

...I have had a dream through most of my adult life of building a car...

Me, too Paul.

I started by toying with the idea of making a Cobra replica, although I hated the thought of driving an obvious replica. At the time, Factory Five offered kits without bodies, and I started to dream about making my own body. The most likely candidate would have been a copy of the gorgeous 375MM Ferrari, such as s/n 378. But (and I can imagine the sigh of relief from the F-Chat community) I decided that an American motor under a fake Ferrari badge would be blasphemous.

At this point fate stepped in. A local hot rodder had taken the body off a 1932 Ford chassis. No one wanted the old chassis, with its flathead V8, or the mechnical brakes, that remained. I got it for what I thought was a bargain.

It did require a bit of work. I fitted a radiator, fuel tank, rebuilt the steering box, and did a number of other smaller jobs. The result was the first photo you see below.

I then began a long stage of planning the design of the new car. I wanted it to look like a pre-war race car, with a boat-tail and polished aluminum bodywork. (Those plans, rendered in Photoshop, are the second and third pictures below.)

I started learning all I could about sheetmetal fabrication, and I discovered Ron Covell. Ron has a number of videos on making bodies and other metal forms with simple hand tools. He also holds workshops around the country. He was (and is) a great resource for me.

I built a body buck, based on my plans, in the same way that the carrozzeria houses of Italy did. The buck is seen in the fourth picture, with a panel being test fitted.

I'd like to say a few quick things about metalworking and body bucks. The first is that anyone can do it. Just like any other craft, it takes some patience, and lots of practice. What makes it so simple is that there are only five things you can do to metal: cut it, bend it, stretch it, shrink it, or weld it. (Although aluminum is much more difficult to work with than steel, because it doesn't change color with temperature at all.) Finally, body bucks are not for hammering on. Instead, they are used as a guide to achieve the proper contours, while individual sheets are beaten elsewhere and then welded into place.

Paul, I'd definitely encourage you to try your hand at some sort of project. You'll be amazed at how much you'll learn through the process. Just be prepared to spend a lot more time than you's ever expect. (I also don't think that you'll find space for a Jaguar V-12 under the hood of an Austin Healey, but do a Google search and you'll find hundreds of people who have made that kind of thing work!)

--Matt

**Artvonne** · #19 12-27-2004, 11:04 AM

Matt~

Interesting pictures. I should dig through some old photo albums, there is a pic of a 28 Chevy my Grampa built into a tractor, complete with steel lugged rear wheels.

In regards to the HealyJag, I did a lot of measuring of both the engine, and the car, in height, width, length, etc. The V-12 was actually shorter than the healey six if I recall, and, I also bet its a lighter engine. I did believe the frame would need to be altered though, and certainly at that point more modern suspension with disc brakes would be a good idea. I tried to picture the car with that motor in it and it just became an animal. Especially when I looked into performance mods for the V-12. Cams would almost instantly bring it to 400 HP, and in a car that small, well, it just seemed to much. But I am getting older so maybe thats something to go back to work on.

Eric~

I agree that the early cars are rare, but one would think that people who love Ferrari's would see the beauty of those cars regardless of their actual numbers or thier cost. I sure hope the 308 isnt considered pretty just because its cheap to buy, lol.

Okay, so maybe first one needs a layout, and then a shape, and then you clothe the shape in metal. Does this seem sensible?

PSk · #20 01-04-2005, 08:48 PM

Matt and Paul,

As you are into making your own cars you might find this interesting: http://www.hsrca.org.au/vol10_n2.pdf

In this volume some guy made a car very similar to what Matt is building ... article on page 12, called an Amilcar Special.

Pete
ps: First of the volume if interested: www.hsrca.org.au/vol10_n1.pdf