Weber DCNF accel pump function, change and cleaning | FerrariChat

Weber DCNF accel pump function, change and cleaning

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by snj5, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    #1 snj5, Apr 9, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As adjunct to the ‘How to change and clean Weber DCNF main jetting' (http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42363&highlight=weber+jetting+change), thought I'd post this easy 'how-to' with photos on Weber DCNF accelerator pump jetting.

    To ensure that when the throttle is opened quickly, the air/fuel (A/F) mixture does not go too lean, carburetors’ accelerator pump a brief squirt of fuel into the barrel until the main circuit catches up. In the Weber DCNF carburetor, there are two things meter the strength of this ‘pump shot’: an accelerator pump cam and accelerator pump jet. Other Weber carbs have an accelerator pump by-pass that aids in controlling pump shot richness, but this is fixed in the DCNF carburetor. Accelerator pump jets for the carb’d street 308 are typically sized at 45, although some later cars may have 35. Racing 308s may have as large as 60.

    When you look down the carb throat you will see the jets sticking into the barrel from near where the barrels come together. You can watch them squirt when you advance the throttle to see if the pattern and amount look the same.

    To change, clean or inspect these jets if you have a flat spot on throttle opening, first remove the air box and velocity stacks (air horns) using your ever-handy 8mm socket or Craftsman ratcheting wrench. Using a 17mm wrench, remove the fuel feed hose (watch the gaskets!!). Next, using a screwdriver, unscrew and remove the tops of the carbs gently as not to bang around the float and easily set them aside. You will see a single brass screw holding the dual pump nozzles near the tops of the air corrector jets. Unscrew this gently and be mindful there are two small metal washers on each side of the nozzle assembly. These can be cleaned with carb cleaner and compressed air. NEVER use something to poke in the jet as it can lose it’s calibrated size (stamped on the jet body).
    Using new gaskets, re-assembly is the opposite of disassembly. Before putting the airbox back on, turn the key to the on position without starting the car and letting the fuel pump run filling the carbs with gas. Check for leaks around the carb top and fuel line attatchment (called ‘banjo fittings’). You can start the car without the airbox on to check if they all are working well and seem to be working smoothly. Now re-install the air box. That’s it!!
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  2. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
    405
    Ferndale, WA
    Russ, I think you have got the "hang" off those Webers, LOL!
    In all seriousness, Knowing that most of what you learned was by "trial and expensive error", I wish to thank you or myself and the many other who have learned by your posts. Knowing what R&D costs, and still taking the time to share it honors the intent of this forum.
    I think i seak for a great many who are gratefull for all of those who freely share what they know, for the good of all.
    Highest Regards.
    Kermit
    I didn't see a dyno sheet on that post however ROFLMAO!!
     
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  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    #3 snj5, Apr 9, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks - I enjoy giving to the community which has given so much to me.

    Since you asked, here's one of my early development chassis dyno (pre airbox mod/ short stack mod :) ) which shows the accel pump fire dropping the a/f very rich to prevent detonation and fade off onto the main circuit bringing the a/f into a better power range. You can also see where the air corrector comes in to bring the a/f richer a bit for high end.

    hope this helps
    rt

    OBTW
    To prevent squinting, the max rwhp for this run was 232, or about 280 or so at the flywheel. Have not done a dyno with the new airbox yet, but if everyone else is getting +10 to +12 hp.... :)
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  4. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    #4 snj5, Apr 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, went to go install the 40 accelerator pumps thinking it had the stock specification 45s to reduce the pump shot, and dang if there were not 35s installed, the smallest available (well, they were marked 35s). So, as we pointed out, the other way to reduce pump shot in DCNFs is by the accelerator pump cam. Contacted Pierce Manifolds today (Steve) and he said they listed 3 accelerator cams for the DCNF. Will try to have one that is a bit less chunky so I can keep the AF at least in the high 11 or better low 12s when opening the throttle.

    Of course, the bad thing here is all 4 carbs must come off to do this.

    Nutz. Well, since waiting on new intake valve cams, will hold what I have and re-set with new valve cam baseline since may have to re-jet the carbs anyway. Better to be too rich than too lean...
    best
    rt
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  5. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Jeff B.
    Forgive me for butting in on this when I don't really know anything about 3x8's, but I'm wondering if there is actually a manual specification for cc's of pump discharge on the DCNF carb? The reason I ask is that way back when, I had a Lancia Flaminia with triple DCNL carbs, and I can remember reading a good tech article about pump discharge on these carbs. IIRC, for the test you had to do something like 10 pumps into a glass container, then measure the volume. The author stated that the carbs on every Lancia he had tested had VASTLY too much discharge from the pump jets, way above the manual specs. I think the cure in this case was to drill out a larger bypass, as mentioned in your first post. I'm curious as to whether or not such a test is applicable on the DCNF, per the Weber manual (I loaned my manual to someone and never got it back.).
     
  6. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    I always am giddy with glee when I find someone who knows a subject so extremely well, and even goes to research what he doesn't know. That would be Gron at Pierce Manifolds - I have never spoken with anyone that knows Webers, especially DCNFs, so absolutely thoroughly.

    He was very familiar with the fat accel pump on the 40DCNF-12, and that the smaller ones are not available anymore. The specs for that pump cam, 14852.011, are a 10.55mm total lift in the 0-57 degree stroke range. He described the only other currently available pump cam, that for a Dino DCN, was less than 3mm! He said that he estimated that my car would require a 7mm stroke, and that it may have to be custom ground, as some specialist tuners have already done. He did say that there were many .011 cams around, as the demand was low as they were well known to be too rich. He is going to try to find the data on the series of different pump cams used in the 308 and will call tomorrow. He did not have any specs on discharge amounts yet as well. We spoke about drilling the fixed bypass, but a little more iffy as it is such a non reversible change, and the pump cam can be replaced

    To custom grind the plastic cam, a metal template would be cut, then placed against a .011 and it cut to match the profile with a Dremel.

    If any of you could measure your pump cam lift, I'd be very appreciative! And even more appreciative if you had a set you'd part with if applicable!

    best
    rt
     
  7. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Well apparantly, the 308 accel pump cam Weber part # is 14852.045, and are quite rare.

    If any of you kind folks have the measurement on total lift of your pump cam, I think we can make duplicates with the .011 as a base.

    Many thanks!!
     
  8. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Bump

    Adjunct to Weber venturi + jetting thread
     
  9. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
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    The Woodlands TX
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    Don McCormick
    Russ, did you ever go anywhere with this. I have a flat spot I am trying to tune out of my 76 dry sump with P6 cams. Just put in the F24 ET and what a change. Posted in another thread just now. But still have a slight problem and am exploring the options. This might fix the problem or make it worse. Seems too rich gives bad performance as well.
     
  10. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    saw the other thread; you are on the right road with the F24s.

    My suggestion: 55 idles
     
  11. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
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    The Woodlands TX
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    Don McCormick
    Russ,

    I will try the 55 idles tomorrow but they seem really large. I know that the 40's are too small as they had a bigger stumble than the 45's. I have 47s in there tomorrow to try first thing tomorrow. I will work my way up to higher idles if the trend is positive.

    Thanx for the advice.

    Don
     
  12. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Just to be clear:
    stock cams and head: 50 - 53
    P-6 cams: 55

    I'm very interested to see how you do! I'm still learning as well!
     
  13. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    Don,

    From a long-time Weber tuner...

    You are better off with a richer idle/slow speed jet and backing the idle mixture screw in, than using a leaner idle/slow speed screw and having the mixture screw out many turns. The reason Weber gives you "a desired range" of turns-in/out on the idle mixture screw, is, if selected correctly, you'll be able to achieve the correct AFR at idle AND not have the engine stumble on transition, ideally. If you look at a cut-away drawing of these Webers, you can clearly see the two path the "idle fuel" takes; they are clearly different at idle versus where the throttle plates open enough to reveal the "last progression" hole. Hence, this seemingly harmless "idle" jet really does alot more than people realize in terms of getting the carb set up correctly. And, due to this unique design "feature", it can be extremely frustrating to get highly tuned engine to perform, without the classsic transitional stumble....that we all love Webers so dearly for.

    A bit more succintly, the first step in any Weber tuning, after selection the venturi size, is the idle/slow speed jet...

    David
     
  14. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
    102
    The Woodlands TX
    Full Name:
    Don McCormick
    David,

    Spent most of the day today playing with the jetting to no avail. I ended up before I read your email back where I started yesterday, 45I, 125M, F24 ET,180 AC. This was the best running combo but I still had the stumble off idle it was just not as bad as other combinations and still better than anything with F36 ET.

    So getting no where I decided to try 55's again (leaving everything else constant) but this time I screwed in the idle mixture screws to 3 turns out from closed. The car did start from a stop a little better but the stumble was still there albeit marginally better. Pretty much all I do is experiment with one combination or another and see if it makes a difference. After a test run, I pull a plug or two to see how the mixture looks. Truth is that the car does very well at all rpm's except for this off idle stumble.

    Two courses of action for tomorrow evening,

    run the mixture screws out to 4 turns with the 55Idles

    go up to 60 idles and run the screws in as far as I can without killing the idle.

    I will post what results I get.

    I have heard the "idle screws can't be further out than 4 turns" many times before but have also heard of others success not worrying about that rule. So this time I will go as high as I have to with the idle jets so that the idle screws are 4 or less turns out. At least I will have eliminated another possibility.

    In the back of my mind I still am thinking that maybe the P6 cams and the pistons will just never be streetable due to this off idle stumble and that what I really need to do is change out the cams or put higher comp pistons in it. Guess I want to try every combination possible before I do that.

    Had a scare today. As many times as I have changed jets and had the tops of the carbs off to change something or adjust float height, all it takes is one false move and you have a crisis on your hands. Mine was pretty simple but pretty ugly. Using the short stubby screwdriver that you need to use on the front bank carbs due to the rear deck overhead, I dropped the screwdriver while working on the front pass carb. I dropped the screwdriver and it fell. Wasn't sure where it went, and like everyone says and so rightly, you need to be like a surgeon around these cars, count everything out and everything back on. If you are missing something you never assume that it fell in a safe or nonessential place. Well, I looked and could not see the screwdriver in the V of the engine, bad sign. I knew it hadn't hit the floor or I would have heard it. After a moment of unease, I reached down into the front timing belt cover and tried to feel if the screwdriver had fallen in there. Nothing and then I heard a slight clanking sound after I had pushed on the timing belt. The screwdriver had fallen in there and I had dislodged it from its initial perch and now it sounded like it was good and buried inside the front cam cover. The early cars don't have the plastic belt shield on the back of the timing belt cover. NOW I know why they made the change on the later cars and the 328s. Well, after the requisite self abuse etc etc, I rationalized that here was the sign that now was the time to do the timing belt change. After all, it has been 5 years (and less than 3k miles) since I did the last one. Why not? Started assembling my tools to get started on removing the AC compressor and the belts. Jacked it up, slid under the car with the drop light and remembered what a pain it is to do this whole thing. To get the W/P belt off you have to loosen the alternator. To get the alternator loose you have to remove the heat shields. UGH!!!. Anyway finally located the alternator and got a sight of the bolts etc and was absolutely shocked to see the little stubby red screwdriver sitting between the alternator and the engine block. How did it get there? How could it have made its way down thru the timing belts and past the idler etc, I have no idea. 5 minutes later I am back on top of the car finishing up the 7th or whatever jet installation of today. Morale of the story, stuff rags around the openings of the cam belt covers and treat them just as you would an open carburetor throat. Not quite as hard to get the stray piece out of but still a fair amount of work that could easily be prevented by being disciplined in one's technique and taking precautions. Haste makes waste. I will post results tomorrow.


    Don
     
  15. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    So, to refresh where we are, what are your current:
    venturi?
    idle?
    main and air corrector?

    Good Luck!!
     
  16. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    Don,

    A couple of "other factors" come into play with the transition stumble.

    When you first set the carbs up, did you set the "air bleeds" as close to closed as possible?
    Carb synch: Despite common read methods I've read on F-Chat, there are two synch checks.
    -At idle, with the linkage disconnected
    -Off idle, say at 2,000 rpm, with the linkage "connected"

    It is critical that all carbs/barrels "open" at the same rate/amount at a given throttle angle. Off idle synch problems can send you down the part of jetting...whereas the real problem is in the linkage. I'm not saying that this is what's wrong, only that it needs to be verified.

    The reasoning behind "not going past x-turns" out is valid. Your idle/slow speed screw "tip" is completely off the internal tapered seat...hence you're not longer in control of the mixture.

    I tried .60mm idle jets in my bb. No stumble, a bit rich on the idle circuit...and the car performed like a turd. With a .55mm idle jet (up from the stock .50mm), I can achieve the best of both worlds, although depending on the outside air temp/humidity, my stumble level varies. Although the cam in my 365bb are stock, they are not the mildest cams in the Ferrari world. I'm running a very custom JE 12:1 piston and some minor porting/intake/carb manifold matching...

    Oddly, I acheived some successes by raising the float level by a mm or two.

    Shortly, I'll be using an LM-2 to further aid in the tuning process.

    Feel free to PM me and we can talk through this on the phone, if you'd like.

    David
     
  17. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
    102
    The Woodlands TX
    Full Name:
    Don McCormick
    Just got back from playing.

    Russ, I currently have the following installed

    Main 125
    ET F24
    idle 60
    venturi 32
    AC 180

    Still have stumble off idle on this setup. The screws are now about 2.5-3 turns out although it won't idle well.

    David, I would love to discuss this tonite if you have time. I will send you a PM now.
    Russ, if you have any thoughts on this predicament I would love to talk to you as well. PM to you as well.

    I tried 55 idles with screws 4 turns out, idle stop screws need adjusting to get me a sustained idle but not sure that it would do it.

    David, good points on synching the carbs. The air bypass screws are all closed except for one which is barely cracked.

    Probably this is a good time to try and get the idle stop screws set right so that at idle (and linkage disconnected) the two banks are flowing the same. I have done that in the past at 2000 rpm and linkage connected but now is a great time to verify that they are the same at idle with linkage disconnected.

    Another odd thing. When I started the car up from cold today (with 55 idles) the stumble is really not noticeable until the engine warms up. As the engine gets warmer the stumble off idle gets much worse until the car is up to operating temp when the stumble is most pronounced. This has been true to varying degrees for as long as I can remember.


    Don
     
  18. Corsa308

    Corsa308 Formula Junior

    Apr 22, 2007
    290
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Steve D
    Don, keeping in mind some parameters of my car are similar to yours and some are different.
    P6 cams, 42mm DCNF with 36mm venturi, 140 main, 170a/c and 55 idles.
    But I only have the typical stumble @ 2600. Starts like a dream, idles like a dream. (I can easily make this engine idle @ 600rpm)
    Pulls away from idle OK but then hestitant @ 2600. Keeping in mind that my AF is terrible as graphed recently but I will get onto F24's and try and fix that, BUT
    my idles are 55's but from memory they are out about 4 turns.
    I read all the stuff of where they should be, but re-built the carbs, did all the linkages as described above and synced the carbies and got a good balance.
    Try them with four turns or so and see how you go.
    Any lower than this my carbs spluttered and coughed terribly.
    Obviously got to do with the cams and reversion as well, but four turns works just fine for me and the Black *****.
    At least thats what my wife calls the car. She does love it, really!

    Steve
     
  19. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
    102
    The Woodlands TX
    Full Name:
    Don McCormick
    Well,

    I played around with the linkage as David (fastradio) had suggested. There definitely is some work to be done there.

    As I got into the linkage I found one of the actuators that bolts onto the carb throttle shaft to be loose. It was the one that attaches to the driver side rear carburetor, you know the one that you always push to keep the car going when the idle is rough or fiddling with the mixture screw. Well, I don't think that I will be using that anymore even though it is the easiest thing to push on when the car is threatening to die and you don't want to let it die and then go start it again and hustle out of the car to grab the linkage and push it so the car does not die. Tightened but not so much that the throttle shaft can no longer turn. Just tight enough to get the wobble out of it. That will help when I try tomorrow

    Next, the two turnbuckle-like adjusting rods. For years I had been lazy and when synching the carbs I would just use the upper rod to adjust both carb banks higher or lower so they matched. Of course this puts preload into one or the other bank and probably messes up the synch that one is trying to achieve when the throttle cable pulls on the bellcrank. So, my question is to the carb tuners out there, what is the best way to adjust both of these rods so that an even, repeatable synch results? There is clearly a spot on both rods where it is easy to twist the rods without affecting the carb bank other than the one that you are trying to adjust/set. The question is, At what point do you stop adjusting one rod and move to the other ( and loosen/tighten it) so that you don' induce movements on the bank you are not trying to adjust. I found this quite difficult to do (and quite hot this evening- its hot here in TX even at night and once that engine gets hot you really are not fond of reaching in there to adjust some rod that needs it that is right next to something that is really hot). Even after adjusting the throttle cable so it takes both banks off the idle speed stops and revs the car to 1500 rpm approx, it is not clear to me which rods should be adjusted and in what order? Very confusing. Anyone have a thought on how to avoid or deal with this problem? It is real, at least for me as the front bank often will not close completely (I can move the actuator a bit and further bring down the rpm etc by pushing it all the way closed) Clearly this is not right, I know what the problem is but I can't seem to figure out the best way to adjust these rods so I don't end up putting this preload into the bank that I am not intending to affect. Confused!!

    I think that this may be a large part of my stumble which occurs right off idle. If I mash the throttle from stop, typically the engine will cough or stumble, catch itself ,and then rev. This really is not a transition problem, it is looking more likely due to faulty synchronization than anything else. Never had this problem with the stock engine so I am postulating that with these P6 cams the synch needs to be dead on not just close so that the engine can power through the stumble. Maybe it is the cams as well but I won't believe it until I get the synch right and both banks pull exactly together.

    Don
     
  20. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    Ah ha!!! As I suspected...

    This "off idle" synch problem is a real one and has to be address, before further tuning can be done. This was a royal pain in the butt on my BB to resolve.

    I am somewhat at a disadvantage, as I haven't done a set-up on a V-8 in years, so the best that I can do is share with you some of the "issues" I wnet through on the BB.

    -Linkage disconnected; carbs synched at idle (
    -> Which includes air bleeds as close to closed as possible, mixture screws set, base idle set...and base timing correct
    -Inspect carefully carb "linkage balls" and linkage arm "sockets". Replace any worn or "flat-spotted" pieces
    -Verify that the linkage arms which will eventually connect to the carbs, via the adjustable lenght linkage pieces, on the primary throttle arm are all at the same angle. This may or may not apply to your car. What I'm try to say is that the both the short adjustable linkage rods AND the angle on the primary linkage rod must all be the same, to acheive equal "tip-in".
    -Idle speed set in Step I and noted.
    -Install individual linkage arms, with "play" at one of the ball end, prefably at the carb.
    ->Try to get the "play" as equal as possible, without the idle speed changing. If the idle speed changes, add more play.
    -Hold the engine at 2,000 rpm (mechanical stop used)...and with either matched vacuum gauges, or manometers, verify air flow through the carbs.
    -Repeat this step numerous times until perfection is acheived.
    ->Remove the stop...and now watch the manometers as you rev the engine from idle to x,xxx rpm. All of the tubes on the manometer should rise at the same rate and height. (No easy task, mind you on a 12-cylinder. Not appreciably easier on an 8-cylinder either...

    If, after you've done all this...and your idle speed has changed, you'll need to start over and add more play to the balls/sockets at the carbs, as you've now introduced pre-load into the carb linkage. What is oftern forgotten about Webers, is that when you're at idle, the throttle plate is almost centered over the first progression hole. This allows fuel into the engine from the idle jet. If the throttle plate is not in this position, you'll start to draw fuel from the main circuit, resulting in great confusion as to what your real idle mixture strength is...nevermind, a wicked stumble.

    Keep in mind, as the throttle plates open further and further, a small misalignment error becomes insignificant in the grand sceme of airflow. That's why even mildly "out of synch' multi-carb set-up will still scream at WFO...but will still stumble at the critical transition point.

    And.....if you have worn throttle shafts, you'll never get rid of the stumble 100%, as you have false air leaking past the throttle shafts, causing a lean mixture at idle.

    David
     
  21. Dandy_Don

    Dandy_Don Karting

    Dec 8, 2003
    102
    The Woodlands TX
    Full Name:
    Don McCormick
    Well, after taking the carbs off and starting all over, I think that I may have resolved my just off idle stumble (at least enough to make the car driveable at low end). It turned out to be a combination of small things that were adding up to give me low end performance. At high rpm, as David has pointed out it just is not as critical that the banks are properly synched because the differences in flow are very small compared to the total air being flowed at high rpm. Those differences are a much larger proportion when compared to the low flows at low rpm just off idle. With stock cams I think that with there is a fair amount of torque at low rpms and that gives a fair amount of leeway in having the engine not synched exactly right at low rpm. With big P6 cams, that don't have a lot of torque at low rpm, there is no such luxury or leeway built in, you have to be dead on.

    To recap, I have a '79 GTS with a '76 dry sump engine, Borgo hi-comp pistons and P6 cams. In the five years since I installed the engine shipped to me from a builder, I have had a notorious low speed stumble right off idle that no amount of fooling around with would fix. So much so that it was very difficult to drive the car on the street. Not sure I wouldn't stall the car when trying to pull into traffic it was that bad. Often times just thought about dumping the car and letting someone else figure it out.

    Anyway, David (fastradio) and Russ (Snj5) gave me great directions on where to look for issues and what jetting combination would be a good place to start.

    Russ really forced me to look seriously at F24 emulsion tubes from the F25 that I had in there for years. He also pushed me into the need for larger idle jets especially with the P6 cams. David led me in the direction of linkage and idle adjustments and checking for vacuum leaks.

    When removing the carbs I noticed that several of the bolts were loose. Clearly a vacuum loss there. Next I noticed that the small ports on the intake manifolds just below the carbs had been threaded and allen head bolts and sealing washers installed to seal the holes. Good but several of them were loose as well. And David had me check the bottom of the carbs for flatness, two were not flat. Easily rectified by finding a piece of granite, putting a sheet of sandpaper on it, and then sanding the carb bases down until flat. Took 2-3 minutes with each. Prior to reinstalling the carbs I blew out the idle jet, idle mixture passage from each end and verified air flow. Each one was fine but eliminated another potential problem.

    After installing the carbs it was on to the linkage. For years I have read of linkage, idle, and too fast running problems with these cars. I had plenty of those symptoms over the years but previously had a installed a big mother return spring on the center bell crank to get the carbs to return to idle as I noticed that after many adjustments I had trouble getting one or more throttle plates to return to the idle stop. Knowing what I now know, it was clearly a case of the linkage being too tight, so that when one of the linkage rods (turnbuckle like affair) was adjusted to get one bank's rpm, it induced a movement (very subtle) in the other bank's throttle plate(s) and hence rpm (also described as pre-load). The other thing I noticed is that when the linkage is very tight, thermal expansion of the linkage had to be changing the settings of the throttle plates making the idle change when the car was warm/hot. So, here is how I solved it.

    1. Set the linkage rod socket adjusters mounted on the two carb bellcrank ball joints (not the center bellcrank) so that there was about 1/16- 1/8" of play. Wire them up with the safety wire. This allows for thermal expansion and other movements that you cannot control. Easiest when the carbs are off the car. Back off the lock nuts on both linkage rods and screw them in and out so you understand how to lengthen and shorten the linkage rods by touch. I made my linkage rods as short as they could be (adjusted all the way in) but DO NOT tighten the locknuts, that comes later.

    2. Adjust both socket assemblies that fit to the main bellcrank ball joints (center bellcrank actuated by the throttle cable) so that they are easily removable. This means taking out the wire safing and screwing the threaded adjustor out so that it barely is in the socket but allows the entire assembly to be fitted on to the ball and most importantly so that it can be removed easily by hand. Put both socket assemblies on their respective ball joints on the center bell crank.

    3. Start the car and get it to idle or warm enough so that you can get out of the car and keep it running by hand from the engine compartment if you have to.

    4. Remove both linkage rods from the center bell crank keeping the engine going as you have to. May need to have a screwdriver handy to screw in both idle speed stop screws to get enough rpm to keep the engine running.

    5. After a preliminary idle is established and stable (meaning it will run however roughly without intervention from you), adjust the bypass screw in one of the two throats in each carb (if needed to at all) to get both throats in each carb flowing the same through both throats. You will not need to adjust more than one of the bypass screws in each carb, if you need to adjust one at all as both throats may flow the same right out of the box. 2 of my 4 carbs needed no adjustment to the bypass screws.

    6. Adjust the two carbs in each bank to flow the same by using the center adjuster screw between the two carbs.

    7. Adjust the front bank to equal the rear bank by means of the idle speed stop screws(external to the carb) on each of the driver side carbs. I got readings of about 4 on the STE SK meter but I think the important thing is that they are all the same and less than 5. ( Russ gave me the great idea to have 4 of these meters on hand so that you don't have to move the one constantly about between carbs to see what your adjustments are doing- 4 is the way to go.) If you cannot achieve a smooth idle under 5 then something else is not right, mixture screws, idle stop adjustment, idle jets, timing etc. After you have about the same flow thru each throat then it is time to adjust the idle mixture screws. The best way to do this is to adjust the screws out to 5 or 6 turns so you are sure that no cylinder/throat is too lean. As you screw out the mixture screws you will probably hear the engine speed increase as one or more cylinders moves from being too lean to being just right or too rich. Don't worry about too rich at this point, will lean out later. If backing out the mixture screws changed the air flow for one or both carbs on a bank then you will need to get the flow back to less than 5 on your meter. This is an iterative process, keep doing the process (as outlined above) until you finally get all cylinders running with the mixture just right or a little too rich. You just don't want any of them to be too lean as that cylinder will always be wanting more fuel and that will mess up your idle and cause the engine to hunt and have a varying idle. Not good. When the idle is rock stable, then is the time to slowly, one by one screw in the idle speed mixture screws so that you hear the engine idle deteriorate or that throat start to "pop" from being too lean. Back that screw out again until the engine speed recovers and add maybe 1/4 turn. Just depends on how safe (rich) you want to be. Remember, if the carb starts popping or the idle slows you ARE too lean. Let that screw out some.

    8. Once you have achieved a stable idle in 7 above with the linkage disconnected, it is now time to reconnect the linkage. The trick is to fit the socket assemblies to their respective ball joint on the center bellcrank without changing the idle speed. I kept the linkage rods as short as possible and was able to get the socket assemblies on without lengthening them and without changing the idle speed. You may need to make them a little longer to get the sockets on without changing the idle speed/flow in any of the throats. Whatever you do ensure that the idle speed and flow in each bank remains the same. Screw in the internal screw adjuster in each socket assembly so that the adjuster loosely keeps the socket assembly on the ball joint. But do not make it too tight and do not install the wire safing yet.

    9. Now here comes the counterintuitive part. When the throttle cable pulls on center bellcrank the top of the bellcrank moves towards the front of the car and puts BOTH linkage rods in COMPRESSION, not one in tension and one in compression. This is important to understand why it is OK to have slop in the final adjustment of the linkage so long as it is the SAME slop in both lingkage rods. The linkage itself does not cause the throttle shafts to return to idle in each carb after you come off the accelerator, THE THROTTLE RETURNS SPRINGS ON EACH CARB DO. This explains why you don't need to have the socket adjusters screwed in and firmly up against the ball joint, the only part of the linkage that does any work is the length of the linkage rod between the two ball joints in question, the socket adjusters just keep the sockets from falling off the ball joints when the linkage is worked. That also is why fitting a big return spring on the bellcrank to get all carb throttles to return to the idle speed stop screws does not work in the long run. I had one for years and now understand that this was false security and prevented the linkage from working properly, I had each of those internal adjusters snugged up so that the socket assembly moved fine but there was no free play or slop. When I adusted one or the other of the linkage rods in the past it NECESSARILY put the other rod and throttle out of position, and destroyed my previous adjustments and the idle. \ This is very important. It also explains why it is OK to have slop in the linkage to allow for thermal expansion of each linkage rod. The linkage needs the slop so that it can move freely and allow the throttle return springs to work without binding on itself. The critical part is to have enough play (or slop) in the linkage but have exactly the right amount of length in the linkage rods so that they push on the throttle bellcranks exactly the same amount when the throttle cable is put in tension and draws the engine off idle. Probably this means they are adjusted so that they are exactly the same length but that is not how you adjust them. Instead follow step 10. Slack is not your enemy, it is your friend!!

    10. Go to the throttle cable adjuster mounted on the cam cover and adjust it to put the throttle cable in tension and bring the idle speed to about 1300-1500 rpm, no more is needed. Now adjust the linkage rods so that both banks flow the same amount. This can take some doing as I had to adjust one bank several times. The point here is that there should be no radical extensions or shortening of the linkage rods to get the banks to flow the same. When you have gotten them to flow the same then loosen the throttle cable adjuster and let the throttles return to the idle speed stop screw. If you have done it right the idle will return to the stable idle that you set in step 7 with the linkage disconnected. This time however the linkage is connected and you should be done with your synch, short of tightening up your lock nuts and safing the sockets. To check, adjust the throttle cable out one more time verify that just off idle the banks are flowing the same and are synched. Release the throttle cable and the engine should again go back to idle and the linkage should be loose. If you have built enough slack or slop into the adjustment for each linkage rod then even when they have thermally expanded they will still have enough slop in them to let the throttles return to the idle speed stop screws without binding. And when you pull on the throttle cable by pushing the gas pedal the two linkage rods even when thermally lengthened (no longer loose, but in compression) will move the two banks equally. If your test and retest works then congrats you are truly synched.

    11. Now tighten the 2 locknuts on both linkage rods and install the wire safing on each end of the linkage socket assemblies and you really are done.


    Currently, I have the following jetting which works well with the now synched carbs. And I upped the timing to 13* static timing (at idle) ramping up to 37* at 3000 rpm and then decreasing above that by 2* every 1k rpm until redline. The electromotive system makes it very easy to do that. David fastradio runs his Boxer with 12: 1 compression at 13* and he reports no detonation so I feel pretty safe and the engine likes that much advance and it helped the stumble be less pronounced as well. This car will never be one to spin wheels at a stop light or drag race but it is great on the open road.

    F24 ET

    60 idles (55 proved too small as the idle mixture screws were 5-6 turns out to get it to idle right without popping or leaning.) With 60's I am about 3.5 -4 turns out. Might try 65's to get the screws in below 3 turns to see if that makes a difference, but will probably be too much gas.

    32 mm venturis

    125 mains (my plugs look great- hint of brown and no black on the center porcelain after a high speed run)

    180 Air Correctors ( to keep from being too lean at high rpm)

    145 Accelerator pump jets

    The car still has a hint of stumble when taking off from a stop but that can be cured by revving a little bit and easing the clutch in rather than dropping it. No stumbles all the way to redline and the engine really pulls well from 4k to 7800rpm before the rev limiter cuts it at 8k

    So, I will end this long post with special thanks to both Russ and David for pointing me in the right direction when I was about to tear into the engine and start replacing parts. At the end of the day it was fixing a lot of little items and a pretty big one- linkage adjustment!! It is pretty much solved and I now can concentrate on other things. Like the need to do a timing belt job as it has been 5 years (and 3k miles or less). Hope that this helps anyone in the future that has linkage or synch problems. If something does not make sense please call me and we can talk it through. I owe others help in return for the help I have received.


    Don
     
  22. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,664
    New England
    Full Name:
    David Feinberg
    Don,

    Glad to hear that our time on the phone the other night was productive!

    Now that you've got the "mechanical aspects" of the carb set-up out of the way, and "known to be right", jetting is now a viable next step. I'm delighted that 90-95% of your stumble is gone.

    I find ever so often that the basics are presumed to be correct, or simply overlooked, when trying to diagnose a driveability concern. As much as I hate to admit this, I find that I am guilty of this on my own car...which seems to take a "low priority" to the client cars I service.

    Best of luck with this exciting project!

    David
     

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