Mystery P4 photos

I’d like, if I may, to enlist the help of the real experts, the likes of Marcel Massini who sometimes frequent these forums in positively identifying some old photos of a P4 (or maybe P4’s) – ideally down to chassis #; ownership (obviously) and the location and approximate date (nearest year) that they were taken ….

About a month ago, I was kindly sent some (fairly low-res) scans of these photos, by a US contact, who, in turn, was given the original photos from the estate of a late friend of his – Randy Barry of Maurader Cars. All he knows is that they were ‘taken in Europe’ (that little old country ) sometime in the 70’s or ‘80’s. He isn’t certain (as I'm not, either) if they are even photos of the same car(s) – taken at different stages of restoration.

Since then, I have touted these photos around various people who I thought might have been able to help identify the car (or the premises – from the dark grey slate? quarry tiles on the floor) – including:
David Piper; Geoff Shilton (of Shiltech Performance Cars, who worked on the restoration of #0856 at Graypaul Motors in ’74); Rob Wilson of RM Wilson Engineering, who was a close personal friend of David Clarke, and has many photos of #0856’s restoration; Terry Hoyle, who last week took prints of the photos over to show Pierre Bardinon, and a few other ‘Cognoscenti’, including FerrariChat’s own Wayne Ausbrooks.

Most of these people have helped, in one way or another, by telling me what these photos are NOT of, but no-one has, as yet, come up with a positive ID.
The latest suggestion, that I have been given, was that some of the photos were of #0856 being restored during Albert Obrist’s ownership – something that I was previously unaware of.
Here are some of the clues that I have considered (some obvious – some not so) ….

First group of 4 photos shows what appears to be a P4 spyder being restored using a 412P berlinetta tail section. The bodywork above the rear window has already been flattened out in the area of the ‘basket handle’ and filled. David Piper said that he organised the supply of a 412P berlinetta (or P3 coupe, as he put it) tail section to Bardinon, to assist in his conversion of #0860 from a 350 Can-Am to its present P4 spyder configuration.
Others, who have seen these photos, have said that the tail section appears to be fibreglass – albeit thin fibreglass. There certainly is plenty of filler dust lying around. That points to a comment made, a while ago, by Jay Felter about the (large) amount of filler that was taken out of #0856 during its most recent restoration (in 2004) by Bob Smith Coachworks.
Please note the dark grey floor tiles in these photos. Shame the scans weren’t in higher resolution – it would have been much easier if one could have read the language in those old newspaper headlines !
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Not much is to be learned from the next group of four (unless you are very familiar with the peculiarities of individual P4 K/O spinners !)
From the underside of the rear bodywork the car would appear to have air ducting for P4 fuel injection. It also has a central rivetted ‘blanking panel’, where the carbs would protrude through the rear deck panel on a 412P. The light grey coloured flexible brake ducting and what appears to be ‘duck-egg blue’ paint under the rear bodywork points to #0856, yet a couple of the persons mentioned in post #1 have categorically stated that it isn’t #0856 being restored by Graypaul Motors.
Tantalisingly, there is an indiscernable glimpse of what could be the car’s chassis tag on the right hand rear chassis tube !
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The third group of photos provides more clues. What is the car in the background under the cover ? A ’57 250TR ? Or maybe a 335S – as owned by both Bardinon and Obrist ? Note the remains of what could be a black #23 painted on the car’s sill. Again, this could point to #0856 – but apparently it is not. Lastly – the painted nose clip with the #23 roundel immediately shouts ‘#0856’. But maybe not …. Comparing it to photos of the #23 carried by #0856 during David Clarke’s ownership the roundel is slightly smaller, and positioned differently. In a slightly larger version of this photo, the same axle stands supporting the ‘tub’ can be seen behind the nose clip. Lastly Pierre Bardinon NEVER has had roundels or numbers painted on his cars, apparently.
Over to you, Gentlemen ….
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Sorry, No .... I wish I did have, it would make it easier to 'piece together' the mystery.
Needless to say - that was the question that I asked of the person who emailed them to me ....
Unfortunately, he hasn't.

 

So why didn't you say that when I emailed you them in the first place, Jim ?
Would have saved me a LOT of phone calls (and typing), LOL !
But ....
You say 'approximately 1984' - David Clarke's restoration was carried out by Graypaul motors in 1974. Plus other people involved in it, categorically state that is not Graypaul's restoration of #0856 that is shown in the photos.
Me ? I reckon it's the REAL '#0846' (in hiding) .... LOL !

Regardless, Jim - not good to speak ill of the dead ...

 

R.I.P. Randy Berry of Marauder Cars - See: http://www.kitcar.com/marauder/home.html with my apologies for getting his surname slightly wrong.
So maybe the top four photos aren't of the same car as the next two sets. Possibly that IS a P4 replica.
Thank you for pointing me in the RIGHT direction, Jim. I'd still like to positively identify the photos, though ....

And I trust you knew I was only joking ! Gotta inject some humo(u)r here and there, every now and then, Jim !

 

With Jim's help, maybe I'm (in part) answering my own questions ....
Thinking aloud - If the car in the top four photos (in post #1) IS a replica, not of a P4, but of a 412P ....
I wonder, then, if it is an earlier incarnation of this 412P 'reproduction', shown by a gentleman from Oregon, in the infield at Monterey, last August ....
Which also appears to have aluminium centre section, with front and tail clips in fibreglass ....
And may also be connected to this 'ex-David Piper fibreglass P4 bodwork' that appeared on eBay a few years back. Hmmm .... Bingo ?
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That's another one you should have bought when you had the chance, Jim - 3589GT - see photos below:

- From the same source as the P4 photos .... possibly also taken by Randy Berry.

I wouldn't have thought so, Jim, but not knowing - either way, was the reason I finally decided to post them to FerrariChat - to solicit other opinions.

See my previous post. You're getting ahead of me, Jim !
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Don't think that's the chassis, per sé, Jim - more something of a 'jig' to support and align the various body sections while they were being worked on. A bit like the one you have, but a lot heavier ...
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I wondered, Jim .... but that guy has hair. LOL !

 

In fact, it's neither, Jim. The words "1967 Ferrari 412-P 'reconstruction'" come from the owner's banner at the back of the marquee. It does have some 412P-esque features about it, though - the rear window shape, and the carburettor 'hump' being the most obvious ....

 

Not a well-lit rear 3/4 shot of #0846, Jim - which is what we need. But I'm working on it.

Nice one of #0856, Jim ! Thanks for posting - makes a pleasant change to see it without the front N/S wing and headlight bashed in !