Trans-Am Vintage @Brian Redman(Road America) PILE-UP!!!

Sad isn't it? Those pictures are starting to show up all over the web. I saw many of those cars race 'in the day' at Elkhart and MIS. It's sad to think that many have been destroyed. A year from now most will be back on track claiming to be the original.

 

For what it's worth, this is Road America (Elkhart Lake), not Road Atlanta as mentioned in the thread title.

 

Ouch. Looks like the 405 freeway in California on a normal day.

Unfortunate but it is a risk each and every time.

 

Damm.. That looks ugly.

 

Rob Lay,
Are there any reports of deaths or critical injuries?
Does anyone know how the pile up started?
Any information about the events that led up to this mess?

I sincerely hope everybody is fine.

 

Race cars are never destroyed and ALSO never original ... if they are STILL racing.

They will be back ... sooner than you think. And if you think you were watching the originals (ie. as per the 60/70s) race er, start smelling the roses mate. Might be same chassis, same steering wheel ... but like ALL race cars considerable development will have occurred with everything constantly revolving (within the rules).

Unlike the vintage concours seen ... these guys DO change their oil, engines, gearboxes, etc. AS the cars must first and foremost WORK like a race car ... not just look good.

Importantly everybody appears okay ... but some analysis needs to occur and maybe some relearning of what flags mean (I read somewhere that some started racing even though the green flag was not shown!!!!).
Pete

 

No deaths ... according to http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showpost.php?p=113827&postcount=10

Apparently the field did not form up correctly on the rolling start (I personally hate rolling starts) and big gaps occurred between the first few cars and the rest. The start flag was NOT given, but the lagging behind drivers did not see (or understand) this and started racing, or finally trying to catch up to the rest of the grid and crashed in to the front (more on to it group) who had slowed to do another forming lap.

As above.


While all now have repair bills ... personally the driver(s) who were responsible for the lagging behind on the formation lap should have their license revoked for a few race meetings, if not a whole season. This was probably caused by ONE single idiot not being on to it, and thus the others had to continue to follow him ... as you are not allowed to pass until the start flag is given.

I have had this happen to me once and I was pissed out of my brain with the guy one grid spot in front of me ... as I watched the rest of the field drive away in to the distance. I lost something like 1/16th of a lap because of this dork ... who obviously should NEVER have taken up racing in the first place. If you are NOT awake at the start ... then what the fncken heck are you doing in a race car in the first place!!!!!!!!

In my case they started the race anyway ... weird , so I lost out.

Pete

 

I can't confirm it, but I also heard the pace car didn't do a good job in controlling the pace and red flags were ignored.

 

Yes exactly.

BUT these are the rules for a rolling start:
1. You follow the pace car and form up so in the correct position. Now if the pace car does 110 mph ... you do 110 mph. It may be too fast yes, but you are supposed to follow the pace car ... not just choose your own speed.
2. When given the start flag ... which is NOT red you start racing.

Pretty simple!

It is up to the pace car to set the speed ... not any individual driver on the grid. Thus if you do not like the speed of the pace car ... AFTER the race you talk to the organisers, you do NOT slow down and fnck the start up.

Pete

 

Thanks for the information Pete.
Although I am happy to hear no one was hurt and car can be fixed, I am extremely mad.

A rolling start is always a bad idea! Please be careful guys.

 

I believe rolling starts are common in the USA ... can somebody please explain why?

I think they maybe a spectator designed idea, as I know from my driving experience they completely snck and rely way too much on each driver doing their part properly.

I think they also are used for some series to help out the differentials, etc. ... but there are plenty of diffs that are strong enough for standing starts (Aussie v8 Supercars do standing starts and they are heavy and around 600 hp!).

Pete

 

This is VINTAGE, is it not??? What is to be gained by trying to win any vintage race--especially on the first lap?? As a former vintage participant, I find the mentality all wrong. Why is the flagman waiting until the last minute to throw the green? Waiting to wave the flag until the lead cars are under the bridge where the drivers can barely see the flagman is ignorant. Once you have seen the green, you are not likely to keep looking at the flagman--you should be concerned with what is happening ahead. Who cares if the cars are not lined up perfectly? This is supposed to be fun-not life-threatening!!! Rolling starts are not inherently unsafe if the race starts on the lap everyone expects it to, and what is the point of making everyone do one more "pace" lap on a track that is 4 miles long--some sort of penalty??? This outcome should come as no surprise--and as some sage once said, few races have ever been won on the first lap, but many have been lost!

 

PSK You missed my point entirely. Read it again. I think we're saying the same thing.

 

Yeah I think so ... sorry . Like you say original and race car are not equal. But I am perfectly happy with: "It is the same car".

Pete
EDIT: I also have to say that in most cases I think vintage race cars are maintained more correctly than the concours people's cars. In the end a car is a machine and it must function correctly ... not just look correct.

 

Because we are the US and the rest of the world does standing starts. Why they do this is a good question i am not sure why but i guess it boils down to the same reason why the USA does not use the metric system while the rest of the world does.

 

I guess I'm at a disadvantage here, having actually talked to a couple of people involved in all this. For my own reasons I have professional concerns with this incident at this track. I'll only say that several of you are adamant about fixing problems which did not occur at Road America. I suppose it's easier when you're several thousand miles from the scene.

Rolling starts are used in almost every North American professional series because they are inherently safer if properly handled. Cars are moving at relatively the same speed to each other -- the function of the pace car is to ensure this speed. Incidents will occur, but severe injuries or fatalities are fairly uncommon because of this lack of speed differential. (It's much easier to wave off a rolling start if someone is lagging back, has stalled, or whatever.) The incident at Road America was caused by an amateur driver or drivers making amateur mistakes.

The problem of standing starts is best illustrated by the death of Ricardo Paletti at the Canadian Grand Prix in 1982, when he stalled on the grid at the standing start and was hit from behind by a car in full acceleration. The driver could not see Paletti through the tire smoke and engine smoke common to standing starts.

 

The Start / Finish line @ RA is in a very bad place, this has been a problem here for a long time, the head of the pack is blind to the back of the field once they crest the hill. The start of the accident was more than likely hidden from the rest of the field, and as they were the big bore group I am willing to bet that the mid packers had a good head of steam going up the hill. Also, if I remember correctly, there is no flag stand between the last corner and the Start/finish line so the pack had very little flagger warning before it was too late. I, as a racer, like rolling starts and do not find them anymore dangerous than standing starts, but I am not sure for the reasons why we do them here. It is a good question.

 

Agree but in my experience it is NOT easy to do the 'properly handled' part. I always find it amusing that driver that have raced in the USA (ie. JPM, etc.) just make the rest look like fools on a safety car restart. Thus there definitely is a learning process to it.

Totally agree.

Incorrect!!!!!, and a major mistake.

The accident was caused by the start being waved away BEFORE all cars had gridded up correctly. Thus the car that hit Paletti was still trying to get to his spot ... and thus already moving (and moving fast). When he saw everybody else starting he hit the gas ... and unfortunately hit Paletti who had (possibly) stalled. Thus the starter CAUSED the accident. Note: To be fair to the starter motorsport was stilling learning how to think safe ... as you stated earlier it is all about speed differentials.

Nowadays ALL standing starts have a person at the back who signals the starter when all cars are correctly gridded. The starter CANNOT start until they get this signal.

Now I have seen this system abused ... and guess what, an accident similar to this one occurred!!

Thus both systems have their flaws and both systems have pretty simple rules that MUST be followed.


Rob,

Like you guys we are used to what we practice ... and thus when somebody shoves a rolling start on us ... well many are confused. This I must admit to being amazed about, after all you should live and breath the sport if you want to play ... and heck, I know the rules of a rolling start and I have only done about 5! (I know the rules of Rugby League and I close to hate the game ... thus no excuse for not understanding flags, etc.)

I have actually not moved off the line twice on a standing start and both times not been hit. The distance between the cars is critical. You must have plenty of room to ensure some sort of safety.


In closing, both systems have their plusses and minuses, I just hate the anti-climax of a rolling start. Standing starts are much more exciting to me

And in both cases ALL drivers must commit themselves to acting out the process correctly ... or don't get in the car. While the event might be of amature nature, this is NOT much to ask from all competitors and the damage done to the cars and drivers is totally professional.

Again I call for a racing license suspension from this incident, and a very hard tonque lashing to ALL competitors that understanding and implementing the rules is not an option, but a necessity.
Pete
ps: With a standing start you are all stopped first ... thus absolutely NO speed differential. Cars of the same race series all accelerate pretty similar so there is NO speed differential safety advantage to either system.

Rolling starts are safer because of the stalling issue with standing starts ... no other reason.


CONCLUSION: Starts are dangerous ... drivers wake up!

 

Rolling starts aren't the problem, it seems to be the mentality of some of the participants. It wasn't so bad years ago, but certainly it has become more of a trophy pursuit than it should be, esp in some of the high-powered classes. I recall a Scarab that seemed to run a bit better than it did "backinnaday"....OG, remember that one??
Same problem here, with today's overcrowded grids.
A friend died @ Road America in '85. Never a good thing, glad nobody was hurt this time.
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Remember too guys that the Start/Finish line on the front straight at Road America is at the top of a hill.

If the reports are correct that a major portion of the field was lagging behind and then thought the race was green, they were quite likely flat out coming up the hill and happened upon the scene unsighted. Recipe for diasaster.

The only other thought is where were the yellow flags? Since criticizing marshalls is tantamount to blasphemy in certain circles, we must have to ask if there was a shunt at the S/F line and a major portion of the field were caught unaware that the yellow flags must certainly have been waiving further down the straight, yes?

Such a shame. Lots of valuable cars destroyed there and hope everyone came out alright.

BHW

 

This should help all of the Monday morning quarterbacks here,


"I was the operating steward for this race. The pace car did what was the right thing to do. We gave them instructions for each group. The two pole guys admitted to running up the hill at 5000 rpm in 3rd gear. The fifth place guy was racing well before the green flag and tryed to force his way between the wall and the car in front of him. He started scraping the wall and the guy behind him checked up and the car that hit him started to spin and then it was one after another into them. I am amazed that no one was killed. All the drivers except two had hans devices.

The green flag was in deed thrown. I red flagged the race with in 3 seconds of the green. Even with the red flag the drivers in the back just keep driving into the rear. The red was shown at corner 15(the walk over bridge). The drivers just did not pay attention. All drivers were forced to attend a meeting right after the incident. They were all yelled at. Interesting that in a few classes they are not allowed to pass until after turn 1 (Historic Gran Prix) and turn 3 for Can Am. One historic Gran Prix driver was banned from their series for life due to an incident in the kink.

I have to agree that the drivers in this group are some of the most agressive drivers I have ever seen. More distrubing to me were how many fist fights started after drivers started getting out of there cars. I feel that if they were able to get out they should have been happy they could even move after a incident like this.

I was very happy with how all of our crews came together to work in the heat. We had a steady flow of water for all the rescue crews, ambulance crews and wrecker crews while they were working in over 90 degree heat. What a great team.

Mike Engelke"

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All the best


Chris