355 heads on a QV? | FerrariChat

355 heads on a QV?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by mk e, Jan 3, 2006.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Since I had time over the holiday to ponder foolish things, has anyone tried to put 355 heads on a QV yet?

    The obvious follow –on question is, has anybody got a set lying around before I start calling the salvage yards?
     
  2. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,282
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I bet if it did fit, the oil ports won't line up.
     
  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    That is why God gave us threaded plug, welders and drills.:)

    Verrel asked on another thread if just swapping the whole engine might not be a better approach. Honestly, I’ve been pondering that too. I’m sure it’s not a bolt-in, but I’m also sure that I’ve never found parts that just flat can’t be put together.

    .I’ve got an harely XR1000 it has XR750 cylinders with 1000 pistons stuffed using custom rods and a Kawasaki ZX750 6 spd with a gear driven clutch in place the the 4 spd and primary chain. I also built a Fait with a Cadilac 500 CI engine. So I’m sure the 348/355 engine can be put on on the 308/328 trans…I’m just not sure how big the project is….I know the harley was a major pain to get everything straight after all the welding I had to do.

    I’m tried to decide what make more sense here. The easiest thing would seem to be to fit the QV heads…unless the problem is there isn’t enough metal, that’s very hard to fix. So figuring out that is the first step I guess.

    Putting in a whole 355 engine is a sure thing on hp and I’ve got my still assembled QV engine to sell to help offset the cost…but it will still cost a lot, it will be a lot of work to fit in, and I’ll need to build a whole new supercharger set-up and it will still cost.

    With the 355 heads the cost is much less, the hp should be similar as long as I’m willing to spin the 308 up to 9600 to make up for the lower displacement
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Mark -- I'd call you insane if I wasn't so envious that you are even considering this project ;)

    One question -- Do you know if the 355 cam sprockets have the same number of "teeth" (and pitch) as the 308QV cam sprockets? They very well might, but I noted on the 355 engine that they got a little smarter and don't make such a large reduction in the sprocket system, but rather do some reduction in the gear system coming off of the crank and some reduction in the sprocket system.
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    I just assumed that the belt wouldn’t fit or be in alignment and that some custom work at one or both ends would be in order.

    Making a belt fit doesn’t scare me that much. I am a bit scared of the valve running into the edge of the bore with the 308 4 mm smaller than the 348/355. But I’ve had to notch cylinder before. And Tommy’s point about the oil/water passages is a concern, sometimes those things just work out really badly and it would end up looking like a Frankenstein with all the external jumper that end-up added. I was hoping to find someone to jump in and say “Oh I tried that and here’s the problem”.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    I called T. Rutland and they have a 355 engine and they may separate the heads, but Ted is on vacation, they get me prices in a day or 2 when Ted's back.....I can feel a stupid decision on the way
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Understood, but it might get uglier than just doing something special to mount the 308QV sprockets onto the 355 cams (if the number of "teeth" on the driven sprockets are different and the pitch is the same) -- e.g., needing to change the gear ratio, and hence the center-to-center distance, of the gear set at the crankshaft, or the distance between the cams on the 355 being too small to fit the 308QV driven sprockets, or needing to make new, even smaller, cam driving sprockets. Like I said, I don't know if you'd have any of these more "fundamental" problems, but I was just curious if you've confirmed that using the 308QV cam drive and sprockets is doable within your assumption.

    Just out of curiosity, I'd be interested in knowing the numbers of teeth on the cam driving and driven sprockets for both models if anyone's got them.
     
  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    The number of teeth isn't really an issue. The cam needs to turn at 1/2 the crank speed and there are a lot of ways to make that happen. Fitting the 308 top pulley will make it happen about the easiest as long as the belt doesn't end up running through a boss or something. Using the 355 top pulley with a with a custom lower to get the ratio right should work as long as the it works out to an even number of teeth. Using the 355 top and bottom with custom gears inside would do it. There are a lot of options, it just depends on what is easiest.
     
  9. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    instead of going to the 5 valve heads with the known weakness from not enough chamber roof meat (remember the early failures?), I'd consider looking at keeping the current qv, using the higher lift 3.2 intake cams, keeping exhaust size and putting in whopper large intakes and long ported runners with motorcycle slide valve injectors. This would give you more flow and keep the reliability for a street car.
     
  10. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
    4,770
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Vern
    Now there would be a winter project for someone. But I don't think they will fit, I think the combustion chamber is bigger on the 355 head the bore is a few mm wider, the valves would hit the cyl. liners. also I think the water jackets and oil drain back are spaced differently. I have an old two valve head hear at home and looked at picture of the face of the 355 head and they look quite a bit different. Regards, Vern
     
  11. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    3,059
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Sean F
    Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to simply put a 348 drive train (engine, trans, etc) into a 308. You'd have no trunk, but if the 355 will fit then the 348 should as well.
     
  12. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
    4,770
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Vern
    Just asking but, why go to the trouble of that when the 355 has more power. It would no more or less complicated to install a 355 motor and you would have another 70 or so HP. Regards, Vern
     
  13. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,282
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    Has this been done before around here?
     
  14. bretm

    bretm F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2001
    4,577
    Northern NJ
    Full Name:
    Bret
    I don't see the belts as a problem, the pullies are completely different (in overall size, and teeth design) so you'd have to run a set of one-off pullies anyway. That would negate centerline problems as well (just run deeper pullies on whichever end has a centerline further in).

    On the valves possibly hitting the cylinders (85mm bore vs 81mm bore), you can run 83mm (steel) sleeves in the stock bores which would give you a little more room if it was just barely touching. Also move displacement up to 3071cc over the stock 2925cc.

    It's been awhile, but the 355 runs 3 oil drain-backs in the head (vs our 2), and none of the 3 line up with our 2 IIRC. Water passages are closer, although still different (less of a pain than the oil IMO to deal with). The biggest problem to investigate would be the oil pressure in the head. The 355 has quasi hydraulic lifters that do require enough PSI present to operate at high rpm. I get the impression this is why they run 3 drains, b/c they probably design the 355 to flow more oil to the heads, whereas the 308 really focuses on the crank. Not the end-of-the-road problem, but something to keep in mind when building it to last. The 355 also uses oil coolers on the cylinder walls, something to keep in mind if you want to spin as high as it (although you'd have an advantage of a 6mm shorter stroke, 71 vs 77mm).

    Might be less work to port the 308 heads and focus on different cams. Ferrari got them well over 800hp turboed... 25 years ago for that matter.
     
  15. lusso64

    lusso64 Formula 3

    Apr 12, 2004
    1,535
    Simi Valley
    Full Name:
    David
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Thanks Bret. I knew they got 800hp out of it, but it’s at 30+ psi boost with really high octane. Not much good on the street, but it says the bottom end is good, that’s part of what got me to better heads.

    Do you know if the oil/water passages on the 348 heads are any closer?

    I’m starting to think that the 2 most particle options are either rework the ports on the QV heads or install the whole 355 engine. I found a couple 355 engines, they’re a bit dear, but not impossible, but I’d need a whole new supercharger set-up.

    I think I’m going to pull the rear head off and throw it on the flow bench and see exactly what I’ve got before I make any decision. Looking at the graphs, I thing the intake flow needs to come up about 20% just to fill the cylinders to the stock redline and I’m not sure where that’s going to come form. I’ll start a thread with whatever I find.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    I know the a 355 driveline and sub-fame can be installed because it’s been done and is driving, and it’s a pretty cool car….but I don’t think that’s the way I’d like to go. If I decide do it, I’ll keep the 308 trans…I just don’t like cutting as much as I used to I guess. If I built a whole new chassis, I’d use the other driveline for sure, but don’t think I want to do that in this car.

    No matter what else I do, I will supercharge (I don’t like turbos on street cars) the snot out of it with the goal being 700-800 hp
     
  18. MTLewis

    MTLewis Karting

    Apr 7, 2004
    195
    Please note that we have discovered that the stud pattern and bore centers are the same for 308 thru the 355 engines. This was determined when we were arranging for new MLS head gaskets for the 4-liter engine. The point is that this is doable depending on reworking the oiling issues. MLS gaskets are available and as well as upgraded liners for anybody trying to swap various heads and short blocks combinations.

    Both bore and stroke can be modified for any of these engines similar to the 4-liter project. The point is that a 4.1 liter 348 engine with 355 heads is not outside the realm of possibility.

    I have additional updates that I will post in the 4-liter thread in the next day or so. This is not an attempt to highjack this thread. I just wanted to expand the discussion as to what may be ultimately be possible.

    Mark Lewis
     
  19. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    As was stated about 355 cylinder head issues, and as you are seriously considering a blower, why not go somewhat backwards. See if the 355 block can work on the 3X8 gearbox, and then see if 348 or QV heads will fit that block. You will have the displacement, yet retain a possible stronger head. But if the 5 valve makes a drastically higher amount of power, and all else stays the same, then I see the desire.
     
  20. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
    2,198
    Seattle, Washington
    Full Name:
    Cliff
    I'm failing to recall if the 308 is a lined or liner-less engine, however, I do know that it is important for a liner (and, perhaps, similarly important for a non-liner bore) to fully contact the head at the top lip to help with relieving the thermal buildup at the top of the bore. If the head bore is 4mm greater then this may be a problem. Also, not sure what kind of compression ratio you'll get but I'm guessing it will be lower than stock for the 308 by an not-insignificant amount. Finally, the piston valve pockets will likely not be in the right place in addition to the inevitable misalignment of oiling and water cooling passages.

    Wouldn't you be better off to just get the stock heads rebuilt with 1mm or 2mm larger valves and fly cut the piston valve pockets to ensure proper clearance? Some porting and polishing would likely be beneficial as well.
     
  21. lusso64

    lusso64 Formula 3

    Apr 12, 2004
    1,535
    Simi Valley
    Full Name:
    David
    I can already see shards of 308 gearbox on the pavement.
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Where's your faith? actually ferrari raced a couple at those numbers and Norwood has built a couple that make those numbers, so it works.
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    The pistons would probably need to be replaced with either solution. Cutting a stock piston would almost certainly result in a broken piston, there just isn’t enough metal there.

    After reviewing a lot of graphs and simulation software results I’ve had an epiphany, the heart of the problem with the QV/328 engine is probably intake manifold related. Ferrari changed the design with the 348 and has used the new design on every engine since and I believe the revised intake is what allows a 348 to maintain cylinder fill past 7000 when the QV/328 engine start fading fast at 5500.

    I’m going to rip the rear head off and spend my winter flow testing manifolds and see what I can come up with before I get crazy with major engine changes.
     
  24. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
    2,198
    Seattle, Washington
    Full Name:
    Cliff
    Mark, re: piston valve pockets, I guess we should look at the crown and see just how much metal is there to fly cut the pocket. Typically, most manufacturers leave enough there allow at least some modest modification.

    Good luck with the flow work - I'm sure many here would love to see the data if you can share it.
     
  25. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    I tried a 360 head and block with a 308 head gasket today.

    It's really close to going straight on... would need to block off one oil drain passage on the 360/355 Head, and cut a hole in the gasket for an oil way.

    Plus, the 308 gasket bore hole is 1mm smaller than the 360 Bore... but that's easy to fix....

    Guys, 355/360 Heads on a 308 block is very doable... but I'd still prefer to put the whole 355/360 Engine on a 308 gearbox.
     

Share This Page