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  #41  
Old 10-25-2006, 07:43 PM
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Nice pics.
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  #42  
Old 10-26-2006, 08:24 AM
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many times, the really experienced and trained professionals, those whose livelihood is dependent upon providing reliable cost effective work post an honest opinion on this forum. Too often, F'chatters are quicker to take the less informed path because, no doubt when $ comes first most things especially engineering can be circumvented. Heck, go into any store in any industry and you will buy a knock-off of an engineered product, yes it may fit the bill, but there was not the same development and testing undertaken. You pay your money and take your choice.


Thanks especially to Brian, Dave, Phil and Tom for their sharing on here and via pm's

Brian Stewart
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  #43  
Old 10-26-2006, 09:05 AM
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"which will go a long way toward explaining why when called out, the FUDDERS don't step up to the plate): "

Back to you, I'm standing on the plate!

I think the photo's can speak for themselves. Think Ferrari was concerned with side load on the water pumps when they spec'ed that bearing?

Now that you are faced with facts what have you to say?

"Perhaps it's different for various regions, but in my state there is a world of difference between "falsehoods" from that of "suppositions."

Not when one claims facts based on suppositions. What color is the sky in your "state"?

Hell, I suppose there is a chance (Chicken Little could have been right as well) that someone makes that bearing but if I were a betting man I would wager a great sum of money that it is a Ferrari only application. I would also bet that ball bearings were used to replace these bearings on the cheap rebuilt water pumps (mind you, not known just guessed at). Rebuild a water pump for this application for $80? Not a chance in hell!
I considered buying one of the $200 water pumps simply to reverse engineer it but I think my point has been made, based and supported by facts and photo's without spending the money to do so.

"On the other hand, if I post something "false" I can assure you that it is a mistake rather than deliberate, and I would appreciate the opportunity to correct any such error."

Back to you!

FUDDER Dave
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  #44  
Old 10-26-2006, 09:15 AM
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Rude of me to forget, Thank you Dave Handa for the help with posting the photos.
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  #45  
Old 10-26-2006, 09:35 AM
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If anyone is interested, another UK source for 355 pumps is:

http://www.superformance.co.uk/355.htm

at around 350GB / $650US
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  #46  
Old 10-26-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian.s View Post
...
Thanks especially to Brian, Dave, Phil and Tom for their sharing on here and via pm's

Brian Stewart

It's good to see the sharing on the forum, but not good to pm "secrets" to a select few rather than post that information as well.

If you'll look at the Fchat stats, vastly more people lurk...just viewing/searching forum threads, rather than post or participate in pms to a select few shop owners/wrenchers.

Those are the people who are SOL when they do due diligence by performing searches for waterpump information because the data on the pumps isn't being posted (though may be shared in a few pms to a select few).

So I'd agree with you on saying thanks for the public sharing of hard-earned knowledge on the threads, but would strongly disagree with thanking anyone for sharing other "secret" information in pms to a select few, as that really does a disservice to the whole concept of a public technical forum.

You can't do an Fchat search for those pms, after all, especially if they aren't to you (which is pretty well going to cover thousands of lurkers on this forum).
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  #47  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
"which will go a long way toward explaining why when called out, the FUDDERS don't step up to the plate): "

Back to you, I'm standing on the plate!

I think the photo's can speak for themselves. Think Ferrari was concerned with side load on the water pumps when they spec'ed that bearing?

Now that you are faced with facts what have you to say?
Thanks for stepping up to the plate, for one thing. I for one appreciate the photos, and I agree that you have a quite valid point that Ferrari was concerned with the side load on the water pumps when they chose that bearing.

And yet you are still seeing those Ferrari waterpumps fail. I have to wonder if my cheapo waterpump will outlast them.

What I was hoping was that you would have had firsthand experience with the knock-off waterpumps, that you would have seen those fail and have had some sort of useful information on the failures such as a hypothethical "I've had 2 different customers with less than 10,000 miles on their 348 knockoff waterpumps flatbedded in with catastrophic failures" sorts of feedback.

In contrast, sheer numbers alone pretty well demands that a shop owner like yourself will have seen a few OEM failures; that's to be expected.

It's still good to see the OEM units dissected, though. Thanks for those photos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
"Perhaps it's different for various regions, but in my state there is a world of difference between "falsehoods" from that of "suppositions."

Not when one claims facts based on suppositions. What color is the sky in your "state"?

Hell, I suppose there is a chance (Chicken Little could have been right as well) that someone makes that bearing but if I were a betting man I would wager a great sum of money that it is a Ferrari only application. I would also bet that ball bearings were used to replace these bearings on the cheap rebuilt water pumps (mind you, not known just guessed at). Rebuild a water pump for this application for $80? Not a chance in hell!
I considered buying one of the $200 water pumps simply to reverse engineer it but I think my point has been made, based and supported by facts and photo's without spending the money to do so.
...
Either you know or else you don't. If you don't know what bearings are used in the knockoff waterpumps, then you are making suppositions just as you accuse me of making.

You admit to guessing above. Fine. You are honest about it, obviously, as you are admitting...but "guessing" is making suppositions.
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  #48  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:13 AM
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Hey Dave, did you get that secret information I PM'd you?


Can you believe this loser? What an ass.

Did you get the CD's of all the secret info I sent? Sorry they weren't in cases, it would have taken a shoe box for them all.
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  #49  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
Hey Dave, did you get that secret information I PM'd you?


Can you believe this loser? What an ass.

Did you get the CD's of all the secret info I sent? Sorry they weren't in cases, it would have taken a shoe box for them all.

Why else would you be bad-mouthing aftermarket waterpumps? I give you too much credit to badmouth them on hearsay; surely you have seen aftermarket waterpumps fail firsthand.

But that information isn't on-line. Lurkers can't search for it in their quest to make an informed purchase.

Thus, you must be sharing it in pm's if at all.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Doubt View Post
Why else would you be bad-mouthing aftermarket waterpumps? I give you too much credit to badmouth them on hearsay; surely you have seen aftermarket waterpumps fail firsthand.

But that information isn't on-line. Lurkers can't search for it in their quest to make an informed purchase.

Thus, you must be sharing it in pm's if at all.
There you go again hearing words I never said. I have never bad mouthed aftermarket waterpumps. I only raised a question as to their durability based on the known cost of high quality parts required for a reliable rebuild. I have never even had one in my hand nor have I ever laid hands on one so I have no grounds to badmouth them.

Further I have never exchanged PM's about them nor am I aware of anyone that has. Do you suffer from paranoia? You are beginning to remind me of Captain Queeg.

I don't know about you but I field about 50 PM's a week of a technical nature, answering specific questions about specific problems that would have little or no value here due to their very focused nature other than to lead others on wild goose chases as you so seem to enjoy doing. I also answer a great many questions that involve another shop so are asked and answered privatly to prevent embarassment or witch hunts like the one here recently against FOW.

You really do give indications of suffering from some mental malady and should seek help.

Last edited by Rifledriver; 10-26-2006 at 11:38 AM.
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  #51  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
but if I were a betting man I would wager a great sum of money that it is a Ferrari only application
just to make this clear in my own head , you're saying that the
355 water pump bearing is a Ferrari-only unit ?

and you're saying this because of Ferrari being worried about the
"side load" on this bearing application ?

how sure are you of this ?

if there are equivalent SKF numbers for both bearing , would you still
say that the OE bearing is "Ferrari-only" ?

thanks.

.
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  #52  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:40 AM
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When a doctor charges an "office visit" fee, we rarely question the fact that they basically impart a few seconds of their knowledge to fix us, and at say $240 an hour your logic says that the bill should be what? $0.50?
If I spend several hours dissecting the intricate potential problems within a 355 alternator issue, subsequent cars are fixed much quicker. But who pays? Not the original individual, he is not billed $6-800, but maybe $200 and a fixed car. Thereafter, the charge becomes the same for any following customer. And yes, I will pm my findings to others so that they can learn/critique from it, just like reading the shop manual/tech buletins. Oh, and are they free? No doubt they aren't.

Brian
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  #53  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
... I have never bad mouthed aftermarket waterpumps. I only raised a question as to their durability based on the known cost of high quality parts required for a reliable rebuild. I have never even had one in my hand nor have I ever laid hands on one so I have no grounds to badmouth them. ...

Then this is all a big misunderstanding.
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  #54  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by No Doubt View Post
Then this is all a big misunderstanding.
You seem to have those a lot.
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  #55  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
You seem to have those a lot.

LOL!

Yes, well, there are a lot of ways to look at cars, and even more ways to look at parts/repairs, so a beginner such as myself is to be expected to have a few misunderstandings along the way.

On the plus side though, once I do finally get something right, I have a gift of then being able to explain that one thing very well to all audiences.
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  #56  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:53 PM
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Been reading this thread along with many others and they are very informative to say the least. I have seen many on here thank those that help us out so we can keep our cars on the road at a minimal cost. Mimimal cost meaning that we learn to spend money where and when it should be spent so that we dont pay through the nose later. It is a good thing when we can buy the OEM part much cheaper than the dealer price and if someone knows of a replacement part that is cheaper and possibly better than the oem the great. It does bother me somewhat when some disagree and start calling others names but I guess that is the nature in all of us to some degree or another. I have not had any problems with my 355 water pump yet(knock on wood) and did not change it in my engine out service this past summer. Hopefully it will hang in there a few more years. Im sure that there are replacement bearings out there that have been improved over the ones installed in ferraris in the last decade. But I may be wrong. I wonder if Hill engineering is working on a better bearing for this water pump. They claim to have made a better tensioner bearing for the 355 then the OEM. Thanks to all the wrenches and others who post on here. It makes it easier to own these beautiful machines. Its nice to fix the odd thing yourself. Now lets all get along.....LOL

Would love to bench test an OEM vs After market waterpump and see which would stand up longer by rigging the pumps up to a electric motor with a much increased belt tension.
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  #57  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 355 View Post
...
Would love to bench test an OEM vs After market waterpump and see which would stand up longer by rigging the pumps up to a electric motor with a much increased belt tension.

That's a very nice idea.
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  #58  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Doubt View Post
LOL!

Yes, well, there are a lot of ways to look at cars, and even more ways to look at parts/repairs, so a beginner such as myself is to be expected to have a few misunderstandings along the way.

On the plus side though, once I do finally get something right, I have a gift of then being able to explain that one thing very well to all audiences.


As an admitted beginner maybe you should limit the advice you hand out to areas you know instead of jumping in and handing out so much bad advice.

You have led countless people here astray with your misinformation.

That is all many have asked of you.
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  #59  
Old 10-26-2006, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
As an admitted beginner maybe you should limit the advice you hand out to areas you know instead of jumping in and handing out so much bad advice.

You have led countless people here astray with your misinformation.

That is all many have asked of you.

That's a legitimate request, and I have no problem with it. I think that I should make it more clear in my posts that I am an amateur, a simple 348 owner turned beginner-wrencher recently...if for nothing else that my style of typing seems to somehow convey otherwise.

In all fairness in this case, I posted aftermarket waterpump contact information for a potential buyer to investigate, and I am personally running an aftermarket waterpump in my own 348, so I trust that meets with your concept of posting about what one knows firsthand.

If I experience a failure, that too will be posted. I have no vested interest in propping up substandard parts. Quite the contrary; I want 348's to be more road worthy rather than less.
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  #60  
Old 10-26-2006, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
Hey Dave, did you get that secret information I PM'd you?


Can you believe this loser? What an ass.

Did you get the CD's of all the secret info I sent? Sorry they weren't in cases, it would have taken a shoe box for them all.

Yes I did, thank you VERY much. My Captin Crunch secret decoder ring is on the fritz but should have a billet reproduction done by this evening.

I'm throwing in the towel. Calling uncle, you win. I am starting to think I beat my head against the wall just because it feels so good when I stop, but hey, it good lunch time entertainment.

I have no want for this to go off in directions that have nothing to do with the origional question. My point was simply to point out the "Better and cheaper than OE" claims must be highly questioned.

Dave
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