This just happened. Diagnosis? | FerrariChat

This just happened. Diagnosis?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Archer911, Oct 21, 2016.

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  1. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    #1 Archer911, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So having bought this 84 308 a month ago at F40 I drove it in to a respected shop for belt service. It also needed a fuel pump, fluids changed, post sale inspection, etc. Cost $5,600.

    Just after leaving the shop, about 8 miles out, on a VERY busy highway I heard a "snap" sound. The tach goes to zero, the battery light goes on, I have NO power and miraculously coast to the side of the highway.

    WTF happened? It was running more smoothly before I took it to the shop (idled better, ran cooler, started more easily). Both accessory belts looked OK after the "snap" and there was no warning of the failure. Some of the electrical like flashers, clock, wipers, directionals no longer work.

    The shop quickly dispatched the mechanic who did all the service on the car and trailered it back to the shop.

    Wondering what you vintage experts think.

    I'll know more on Monday.
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  2. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,903
    Central Florida
    In your previous posts about this car you said the wiring was "a mess" and that you removed about "20 pounds of misc electrical crap that previous owners had installed."

    I would say you had some kind of massive electrical failure and that there are still some electrical gremlins lurking in the car.

    The "snap" sound you heard could have been a major electrical connection or ground frying/failing/or separating in some way.
    Alden
     
  3. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
    14,500
    Atlanta
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    Tom Spiro
    To me, Having had this happen, could be that the water pump belt snapped? that would bring on the light as if it goes it usually takes the alternator belt too... or you melted one of the connectors under the foot well.
    any burning smell in the cockpit?
     
  4. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Alden: That is one of my fears. A "snap" sound though. In all of my years with electrical tinkering I haven't heard that sound. But it could be. The windows were down as it was hot in the car so I can't say that I can localize the sound. It also might have been a "pop" which could have been an electrical arc. I pulled the panel covering the fuses and didn't see or feel anything out of the ordinary but you never know what's lurking (as you put it) behind the dash or elsewhere. The car did do well for a good 60 miles before going to the shop for service and the problem, if electrical, didn't manifest itself yet. But bad or loose connections can come apart anytime. Maybe it was a positive lead that grounded out and blew something—"Pop."

    Pop aside I am wondering if a voltage regulator failure would cause this?
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Guys the engine died ... and was not running as well as it was before. Personally you took it to the wrong shop!

    I hope they will stand behind their poor work and fix her up for you :)
    Pete
     
  6. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    That was the mechanics first suspicion BUT the new belts are still on, but yes, that would cause this problem.
    Yes, the car was stinking pretty badly but I attributed that to the engine being cleaned.

    What connectors under the footwell? ON the drivers side?
     
  7. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Car will run on battery even with failure of alternator, it'll run until the battery dies, so doubt that's the primary issue.

    That you lost ALL power is indicative of major electrical failure. You had no lights, engine died, etc. but battery light went on, indicating elec failure. Shouldn't be too hard to diagnose once back n the shop.

    Could be coincidence, but the fact that it was running worse after the service is concerning.

    To try and further diagnose without the car on hand will just result in a TON of conjecture. Let the mechanic dig out the problems, report back here, go from there.
     
  8. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 3, 2001
    7,802
    LA
    Full Name:
    Frank
    I was considering calling on this car when it was for sale. Glad I didn't.
     
  9. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
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    Peter
    #9 peterp, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    Maybe the "snap" sound was from the braided engine ground strap breaking.

    It seems possible that the strap got caught on a neighboring nut or something when they were putting everything back together, and nobody noticed it, so when they tightened things up, it put a lot of pressure on the strap. If this was the case, then the extra suspension/engine movement that would result from normal driving or hitting a bump on the road would cause it to snap.

    The above sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory, but it's my best guess.

    .
     
  10. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Right you are that the car will run until the battery dies. Had that happen on my 87 911 before it died on the road. This wasn't the same kind of failure but then again it's not a 911.
    If the voltage regulator failed and overcharging occurred to the battery that could cause a boiling condition and "pop" along with sulfur smell which the car had badly.

    In this 308 the battery already was a stinker, undersized, and weak. The mechanic reports that it's now dead. Hmmmm. I should have changed it long ago. Actually F40 said they would put in a new battery before I left but never did. Just in case I had a jump box with me.

    Pardon the conjecture. I'm a conjectureist so....that often leads to a bit of learning for us hacks ; - )
     
  11. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
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    Tim
    #11 Archer911, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Voltage Regulator Theory:

    Let's say the voltage regulator goes so the alternator starts producing voltage beyond what the 308s circuitry is capable of handling. The battery is already crap and can't buffer the additional voltage so components like the fuel pump, relays, fan motors, etc are getting hit with a constant higher voltage than spec.

    As voltage rises so does current draw from devices starting to overheat. Fuses go, components overheat, etc.

    Wondering if you guys have ever heard of this happening?
    Wish I had the car to inspect right now.

    pic is of SOME, but not all of the electrical crap I removed from the car. The car worked without incident after the removal.
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  12. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 3, 2001
    7,802
    LA
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    Frank
    I see a stereo and pieces of an alarm brain what is the rest of the crap?
     
  13. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
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    Tim
    #13 Archer911, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    2 alarms that had tentacles into everything, at lease one stereo, remote radar detector, and fog lights.

    The jackasses had tapped into wires with the squeeze on connectors, cut wires and reduced wire gauge sizes, hacked harnesses into both doors, etc.

    Frank, you were right to pass on this car.

    BUT i'm a big boy and bought the car AS IS no warranty so.......
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  14. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,625
    CT
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    John Kreskovsky
    Sorry to here this. Very strange. That the battery light came on would indicated battery power was still there. Hope you get it sorted w/o investing too much more into it. But you know what Wayne says. He buys them and he SELLS them. :(
     
  15. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
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    Tim
    #15 Archer911, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    Well this was a consignment. AS IS all day long. BUT, you would think there would be some discretion before taking a car in....wouldn't you? At least I would but them I'm and old school moral dinosaur.

    That being said Wayne is still a "used car dealer" which loads the chamber with a certain degree of baggage and I would respectfully contend that Wayne and Mike (his lone sales guy) have their hearts (if not their wallets) in the right place.

    But hell, I bought a pig in a poke and am left to sort out the warts and such.....
     
  16. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
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    Kim
    SO WHAT. So You've had a mishap and now getting down on yourself for the purchase of one of the most iconic sports cars in the world? You are one very lucky individual and for someone to post that they're "sure glad they passed on the car" is their loss. A week from now this won't seem like such a big deal. Just another learning curve. Congrats on your 308!

    I removed almost the exact same pile of crap stereo/alarms/radar detectors/wiring out of my QV also.
     
  17. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
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    Tim
    OH NO! Not down on myself at all. It's just the way the world works.

    Thanks for chiming in.
     
  18. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,626
    Canada
    When you say the engine was cleaned, I hope that does not mean degreasers sprayed on and hosed off, it is possible a computer brain shorted due to moisture getting into the connector. Generally not a good idea to "clean" these engines other than with solvent and a rag. Otherwise, sounds like a major short circuit. No fuses blown?
     
  19. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
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    Sorry man but this is inaccurate. I've pressure washed both my GTB/GTS QVs Engine bay in the past. Just made sure I put a plastic bag over the coils and stayed away from the distributors. To short the " Computer brain " One would have to pressure wash inside the trunk compartment area, and I don't see any of us doing that frankly. LOL
     
  20. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    #20 Archer911, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    Your comments are certainly valid except the ECU resides in a place where the sun don't shine. The service shop is very conservative with their cleaning methods and use Simple Green and stress no steam or pressure washing.

    BUT you never know as moisture can migrate into electrical connections and cause the gremlins to come out.

    Moysiuan, what connections in the engine compartment do you think would cause such a failure if compromised?
     
  21. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
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    The Meister
    You lost the alt belt and depending on the state the battery was in was how far you made it...JMWO. I had the alt belt snap on my 2V 308 one time and probably only made it 4-5 miles before I ran out of juice.

    Depending on what all those wires and stuff were spliced into it could have compromised the cars ability to go longer on a non charging battery. Italian electronics are dodgy to begin with, any car that has had that much added to it could be a potential long term headache.

    I hope it's something simple like the belt and you are back on the road soon. Good luck
     
  22. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Well the "brand new" (10 miles of use) alternator/water pump belt is fine. Something else.
    Thanks for your input and I hope I can drive this thing before long.
     
  23. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 3, 2001
    7,802
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    Frank
    I've already owned one. It was a nightmare sorting out the issues, I AM glad I didn't call on this one as there are many out there to buy at the asking price that will be well sorted and not have these issues.
     
  24. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    Hate to say it, but you may have lost a timing belt.
     
  25. scowman

    scowman Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2014
    2,479
    Scottsdale AZ
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    Stu Boogie
    I have heard the snap before. It might be a fuse blowing. The fuel pump safety switch on my car was jumped with an exposed wire that contacted the seat rails. Check fuses and work backwards.
     

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