California misfire at 4200 rpm on up | FerrariChat

California misfire at 4200 rpm on up

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by PRO SYSTEMS, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    I have a misfire in my 15,000 mile 2010 California only at heavy throttle at 4200 rpm on up.

    The dealer (they seem sharp) says its an injector OR two that are clogged on one bank. BUT its a HARD misfire I am struggling to believe it and they don;t seem confident enough to sell it to me as "the fix" to my problem.

    Its a hard mis, like an ignition miss. The system reads lean when its happening (ignition misfires can also show a lean reading) and fuel pressure is rock solid.

    I am unfamiliar with Direct injection, but typically misfires from being lean wouldnt be so aggressive of a hit on the misfire (this feels like AND sounds like a rev limiter/ignition interrupter...but it allows the engine rpms to climb). Also it happens at EXACTLY 4200 rpm on up everytime when you are beyond 4200 rpm.

    If you run the engine below half throttle it will run real high on rpms without a miss.

    Only under heavy throttle do you get the violent miss.

    Ideas anyone?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    Sounds like one or two of the injectors are not spraying enough fuel.
    At part throttle, the engine needs less fuel, so the injector seems up to the task.

    As to the 4200 EXACTLY, if you could position your car on top of Pikes Peak and drive at full throttle, at those low pressures, the misfire should occur at higher RPMs.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #3 Rifledriver, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
    What does the memory say? The self diagnosis is extremely good at picking up a miss. It will pick up a miss that you cannot feel.

    If you have an injector problem there are other recorded engine parameters that will show supporting evidence.
     
  4. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    The only reason I don't think its an injector issue is:

    Anything above 1/2 throttle causes the issue to occur at exactly 4200 rpms on up.

    We know there is a difference in fuel volume delivered from 60 percent throttle to 100 percent throttle.

    So if its an injector partially plugged problem, RPM should be irrelevant. Fuel volume requested should be what will CHANGE the rpm that the miss occurs.

    At 60 percent throttle and 4000 rpms lets say I am asking for 250 h.p. in fuel. BUT at 100 percent throttle and 4000 rpms I may be asking for 300 h.p. in fuel volume.

    Neither throttle position will create a miss until the engine hits exactly 4200 rpms.


    Its always a HARD miss at exactly 4200 rpm (it doesnt sneak up and get bad...its instant like a rev limiter at exactly 4200 rpms) on up any time the throttle is above 1/2 way.

    NO change in throttle position (fuel demand) will raise or lower the 4200 RPM on up miss UNTIL you get set throttle position at below 50 percent on the throttle. Then the rpms will climb easily and without a miss.
     
  5. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    Codes set:

    P0302 Cylinder # 2 Misfire detected
    P0300 Random Multi cylinder misfire detected
    P1572 Immobilizer Malfunction Bank 2 (invalid Signal)
     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    It's the injectors. A have replaced many for the exact same reason you describe. The injectors are not sold individually you must by the entire rail with the 4 injectors. It's a very well known issue with the 2010 cars.
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Get it diagnosed with a diagnostic tool designed to do exactly that on the California. If you do not have a diagnostic tool that works on late model Ferraris, take it to a reliable Ferrari shop that does. Whatever it is, diagnosing it on the internet is pretty much impossible.
     
  8. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    Hi Terry, I took it to the Dealer and have pages of inconclusive data. They just feel its "probably" the injectors. But at $8500.00 its my gamble if they are wrong.

    tbakowsky,

    1. Why didnt someone clean the injectors instead of replace?

    2. Are they carboned at the tip causing the failure (why not just clean them)?

    3. Is it an internal issue with the injector that is causing the failure (hence the reason for replacement)?

    Thanks in advance for your insight and time.
     
  9. Beetle

    Beetle Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2013
    776
    Check to plugs. Shut the engine down straight after the misfire. read the plugs. Could this be done on a chassis dyno?
     
  10. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,827
    Isle of man- uk
    Have you tried some fuel injector cleaner in the petrol tank before you start tearing it to bits, my mondial used to cut out coming up to a t junction. Mine was not direct injection but its the same principle. Best to put this stuff into a low level tank. We have redex petrol injector cleaner, or winns etc.
    Its not going to do any harm so worth a go.
    If it was blocked you would be a cylinder down so it sounds like it is sticking
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,864
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Ah seafoam. Good old seafoam. .:)

    Have you called the recyclers and looked for a used injector to test? Not sure what parts equivalent is.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If there is an injector problem it will show up in the fuel trim numbers.

    It is time for a second opinion. The guys you are using are either not up to the job or are being prevented from doing it.
     
  13. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    So is the P0302 code denoting a misfire in cylinder #2 identifying the cylinder as being located in the Passenger side front location of the engine?
     
  14. AD170

    AD170 Karting

    Jul 18, 2014
    78
    Just be aware the misfiring cylinder could be another. The ECM uses the Crankshaft Position Sensor to identify the misfiring culprit (looks for a slowdown) and sometimes its wrong on which cylinder. Scope the Secondary Waveforms to see if its firing in the cylinder rich or lean. Interested in the pages of data to justify an 8500$ fix. Since its at exactly 4200 rpm look hard at Variable Valve Timing. As mentioned above, its time to go somewhere else.
     
  15. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    AD170, we are on the same page... the fact it hits at EXACTLY 4200 rpm every time NEVER below 4200, points towards an computer controlled system of some sort. It seems a malfunctioning injector would not be rpm related but fuel volume related... it seems.
     
  16. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,827
    Isle of man- uk
    I take it seafoam is your version of injector cleaner ? Not heard of that one
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    There have been problems with direct injection systems coking up the cylinder heads, but no way that would cause a persistent misfire at exactly the same rpm every time.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I agree but having the injectors cleaned and tested is not a huge expense. I understand the dealer being reluctant to promote that but I would do it to cover the base.

    In general though this does not sound like a mixture issue.
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Brian- I agree. Had mine cleaned last time we changed cambelts. Not sure if it is any more involved on the direct injection Ferraris or not. Usually $20-30 per injector (plus labor and shipping) for the port injection, but not sure about direct.
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    re injector cleaners... cleaners are preventative maintainance... they are effective at preventing clogs, once clogged, injector cleaners do not work ( think about it... for the cleaner to work there must be fuel flow, when clogged there is NO or limited fuel flow )... you can give the cleaners a try, just in case there may be enough flow to get some cleaning started, ultimately time to clean/rebuild the injector and be sure to replace fuel filter... a fouled injector is unable to atomize the fuel... failing injectors form large droplets of fuel, which are slow to burn completely... leading to other problems from poor running
     
  21. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    injectors are universal, think of injectors like a spark plug, which are universal and built to a specification... just get the correct specs ... each has a specific operating range... fuel flow and pressure... there are many diesel truck shops ( it's the spec not the fuel ) that are equipped rebuild them at reasonable cost... Ferrari buys their injectors from the major manufacturers...
     
  22. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Karting

    Mar 4, 2017
    54
    Miami, FL
    If it was a minor job to remove a Direct injector, we would just do it.

    BUT this looks like a complete engine removal is required to even get to them. Hence the $8500.00 price tag on this "gamble"

    Still haunted by the fact the rpm where the misfire occurs is so precise where it begins and so consistent as the rpms increase. It doesnt get better or worse, its the same everytime. Injector cleaners of every type have had zero effect on this... also if you run it at below half throttle its smooth as silk to 7000 rpms possibly higher.
     
  23. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,035
    Seattle/Bay Area/NYC
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Seriously? As in disassembling the top of the motor bits or actual "disconnect the engine from everything and hoist it partway out"?
     
  24. maxvonauto

    maxvonauto Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 23, 2015
    159
    Corona
    Full Name:
    Mark
    #24 maxvonauto, May 6, 2017
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    I pulled the injectors and had them cleaned when I removed the carbon on my intake valves. I did the job in my garage without pulling the engine. Access is a bit difficult (on my 458) but suspect that a California would be significantly easier, maybe an eight hour job. I'd look at plugs and coils first, but could be a bad (electrically) injector as well, among other things.
     
  25. james62

    james62 Rookie

    Sep 21, 2006
    5
    #25 james62, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    I am a mechanic not a Ferrari mechanic, if it was me and the coil packs are interchangeable I would move the offending cylinder coil and plug to another cylinder.
    If the miss fire code p0302 moves to another cylinder then its coil or plug.
    If it does not then it is most likely injector or air leak ect..

    Whats the story with the p1572 imobilizer bank 2 , p0302 is cyl 2 and thats on bank 2.
    What does that mean, is it imobilizing the engine because its getting an incorrect signal from fuel pressure sensor or cam sensor I would find out about that because the 4500 rpm cyl cut maybe a safety feature in the software so you dont over rev if it is seeing an issue.
    Maybe it is seeing an issue with a lean mixture and the safety p1572 is what you are feeling as a driver???.
    Like I say not a Ferrari guy but every manufacturer has its way.
    If the codes are cleared does the issue go away, then after a drive cycle the issue is back because that maybe a clue to p1572 being a safety feature in the software.

    If the inj were an easy removal ,from reading it is not , and you could put it into another cylinder and again see if the code moves to that cylinder then that would prove a point.
    If you have to buy a rail and all inj I am thinking maybe they can not be removed of the rail for safety reasons.

    I use a tool called chassis ears at work, if you had one mic on a good inj and one on the offending inj in cylinder 2 you may hear a difference in the 2 when it plays up.
    Just a thought.

    Jim
     

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