For the sake of simplicity, would he have gone by Frank Gallo; like when listing cars in the Road & Track classified sections back in the early 70s? How routine it was, back then, to see him list 250 SWBs for $3500 (very nice) to $5000 (xlnt). Likewise for Ed Niles, and I think, Basil Shadlun. The stuff of my dreams, then and now!
So it looks like this is the car, picture after the jump. http://www.italiaspeed.com/2008/cars/ferrari/02/palm_springs_desert_classic/0202.html
I'm sure during the concouse it will be looked at very carefully and we'll better understand if this is really 01C or if it's not. Interesting development. I wonder if this body is 002C's old Motto body??
Gentlemen, first a "thank you" for the "125 and 159" thread. As someone stated earlier here, it was the most interesting discussion about cross members and stamped number's I've ever read. Great Then in the link johnei posted it says "This is the first time in 20 years this pristine automobile has made a public appearance", so if it has been known and "made a public appearance" until the late 80s, why didn't it come up in the original thread discussingthe 01C/010I matter? I understand that the number of these very early Ferraris is very limited, so is this a car of whose existence no one was aware of (and thus the "public apperance" is questionable), or was it thought to be another car, or is it known and has some shady history which disqualified it from even being mentioned in the old thread?
My feeling is that no one knew that the car was significant. It looks like has been modified so maybe it didn't get much attention last time it was out in public. Or the right people didn't look at it. In the picture (which I assume was taken wherever the owner has kept the car) the area looks like the high desert. Unlike the coast, the desert part of California hasn't had much of a car scene in a long time. It is 90 minutes from Palm Springs to LA. Assuming the car is near Palm Springs. I suspect the owner just kept the car out of the way and never felt the urge to take it out in public. Remember the highly original 166 that was just found in Arizona? Maybe there is a similar story here. Also I think Tom Shaughnessy just said the owner wants to remain anonymous, so all the more reason to keep it put away. I'm sure we'll find out more about the car.
On the internet these pics are available. Copyright unknown to me. I was also under the impression the Motto body had moved from 002C to 031S. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Those photos show the car with a VSCCA scrutineering sticker on the headlight. Register lists Edmond Willimann as being the permanent holder of that competition number (166) but he is no longer listed as belonging to the club.
Williman owned 031S from the mid 1970s. It got the Motto body from 002C and a 212 engine and trans. Photos of 031S from 1954 & 1964 are shown in Cavallino 96 with details from Marcel Massini. Hard to tell if the snap on Italspeed shows a car with steel wheels, but it does have the 166 number on the side. Perhaps the car is 031S, it's not the first time it's been described as the "first Ferrari". http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135528236&postcount=211
Well that is a curious coincidence. Otherwise, maybe the car was misidentified / labeled as 031S? I can't tell from that picture of the car's trunk area if the cross member is in the right place for a type 125. I think it looks close.
You have to look and measure very carefully. There is something many don't realize. I'm going to wait until Tom reports to give exact measurements but what many assume is a chassis cross member isn't a chassis cross member. It's a detachable tube/brace that is NOT part of the chassis that the anti/roll bar runs through. Look VERY carefully at the 125 Drawings that I posted earlier in the thread...
Thank you Boudewijn for these photos. Also in the Prancing Horse no.164 are some pics and history about the 002C/007S/031S ,article by David Seielstad. Look forward to more news about this car ! regards ivo
I can't wait for March to find out what the car looks like today and we hear more about the background, @ Napolis would it, if the car is in fact the first ever Ferrari, it be dissapointing for you (as being the owner of the oldest Ferrari in existence)
Not at all. This comes down to whether or not you think Bill had sex with that woman. 01C was the first Ferrari. It crashed and was scrapped. It's chassis wasn't destroyed. Of all people I understand that a scrapped does not mean destroyed. That said unlike the Series I GTO's that Ferrari removed the bodies from and rebodied as Series II GTO's which kept the same chassis number IF 01C's chassis was reused by Ferrari it's original chassis number was changed by Ferrari to either 010I or 031S and assuming that happened, which the jury is still out on, as both of them can't be built on 01C and neither of them may have been, the mystery for now continues. The point is 01C chassis may have been used to create a new car but as 01C was never resurrected as 01C, 01C is long gone. It's like my Ferrari Dino Competizione 10523. It was definitely built on Ferrari Dino 206S 034 but it's Ferrari Dino Competizione 10523 not Ferrari Dino 206S 034.
I totally agree. 01C no longer exists, even if some of it was used in the construction of another car.
I agree with you guys, its just that it all can be very confusing. I wonder where to draw the border, with the vintage vehicles I wonder what is original I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I like to divide the cars in three parts 1. Chassis - 2. Engine - 3. Body. For me its really hard to decide what makes cars original, I mean does the chassis of 01C still have the original engine? does jim's car? and as far as I know Jim's car does have a repro body... It all makes me wonder what would be the oldest Ferrari still all original as it left the factory. It all makes me realise how much I love the barnfind 166 mm touring barchetta, and scotch
002C has it's original engine/gearbox/chassis/etc./etc. It's SC body was made in the 60ies when Stan removed her Motto body which seems to have wound up on 031S. Her original SC body is gone with the wind. Cars with all three or five as Doug says are Very rare. Of mine 0854/J6/J446/ and Dino Competizione do. Dino Competizione is one of the most original cars existent. Best
Thanks for your explanation Jim, I'd love to see your Dino one day when I'm in the US again (with the developments in the US economy it might be pretty soon)
Well I'm heading out tonight so I can catch the tour on Friday and then the show on Saturday. It will be interesting to get a closer look at the car and examine its details. If anyone else wants to see for themselves the show website is at http://www.desertconcours.com/index.html Should be some other good cars there too.
